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Last post 9 days ago by rfenst. 133 replies replies.
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Opinion: Western Democracy’s Future Depends on Israel’s Victory
RobertHively Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
rfenst wrote:
@ #99

Your replying to Hively, right?



You can take it. Lol I yield the floor.

I been done with this thread.

Post #48 is all I had to say.
rfenst Online
#102 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
RobertHively wrote:
You can take it. Lol I yield the floor.

I been done with this thread.

Post #48 is all I had to say.

If I Too much were to take it, I'd have to deny and explain many of his accusations about MY opinions and beliefs.
I yield.
RobertHively Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
^

"If I Too much were to take it"?

Idk. SEE post #48. You asked for intent, I gave you the quote. Idk what else there is to say. horse

Jeebs, heard that cuz. We all have our own thoughts and opinions.
RobertHively Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
Fenster wrote in post #38: "As to all this "genocide" b.s., the legal concept of "intent" needs to be proven. Got any proof of "intent" to commit genocide?"

Hively wrote in post #48:
"Intent? Here's an excerpt from the article Ray posted:

"Netanyahu has also recently invoked Biblical language to “justify” his mass killing of Palestinians. In a public oration he quoted Samuel 15:3 saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible.” And, quoting “Our Holy Bible”: “Now go and attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”"
RobertHively Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
Article Ray posted: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2024/04/thomas-dilorenzo/palestinian-confederates/
Abrignac Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
RobertHively wrote:
Fenster wrote in post #38: "As to all this "genocide" b.s., the legal concept of "intent" needs to be proven. Got any proof of "intent" to commit genocide?"

Hively wrote in post #48:
"Intent? Here's an excerpt from the article Ray posted:

"Netanyahu has also recently invoked Biblical language to “justify” his mass killing of Palestinians. In a public oration he quoted Samuel 15:3 saying, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible.” And, quoting “Our Holy Bible”: “Now go and attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.”"


Therin lies the problem. As I’ve said earlier people throughout history have relied on religious dogma to justify killing even after having been told not to kil.
Speyside2 Online
#107 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
A strange statement for Netanyahu to make. He is Jewish so he does not invoke biblical language, he would invoke Torah language. Also, Samuel 15:3 never mentions bible which would be an absurdity given that Samuel was Jewish. To the best of my recollection in 1546 the council of Trent issued the definitive answer on what books the bible should be made up of. The earlies books of the New Testament were written about 100 CE. The bible as we know it was not compiled until the 3rd and 4th centuries CE. So, the term bible would not have existed until this timeframe.

Perhaps you could find another source to establish intent as your first one seems inaccurate.
RobertHively Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
^
No I don't need to research this any further.

But you can confirm it if you want with a quick search of the internet or Youtube.
jeebling Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
rfenst wrote:
@ #99

Your replying to Hively, right?

Yes
Speyside2 Online
#110 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
I would rather go right to the source; Bible is not a word ever used in the Bible. That also is a fact, you might want to check this by reading the Bible. Jing James, NIV, NLT, take your pick. The internet, and YouTube are not the Bible. Perhaps you have noticed this, perhaps you have not. A rather weak response on your part in my opinion. I suppose it was the best one possible given that you are unable to substantiate what you are claiming, as it does not exist.
Abrignac Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
Speyside2 wrote:
I would rather go right to the source; Bible is not a word ever used in the Bible. That also is a fact, you might want to check this by reading the Bible. Jing James, NIV, NLT, take your pick. The internet, and YouTube are not the Bible. Perhaps you have noticed this, perhaps you have not. A rather weak response on your part in my opinion. I suppose it was the best one possible given that you are unable to substantiate what you are claiming, as it does not exist.


I’m pretty sure one can find the verbatim text of every version you mentioned on the internet. As far as YouTube is concerned I’m sure one can find videos of a narrator reading each of those versions as well.
jeebling Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
I am a sucker for the James Earl Jones reading but I also like some English dude whose name I can’t remember. He does a mean KJV though.
jeebling Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
RobertHively wrote:
^

"If I Too much were to take it"?

Idk. SEE post #48. You asked for intent, I gave you the quote. Idk what else there is to say. horse

Jeebs, heard that cuz. We all have our own thoughts and opinions.


Herfing Beer
RobertHively Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
Abrignac wrote:
I’m pretty sure one can find the verbatim text of every version you mentioned on the internet. As far as YouTube is concerned I’m sure one can find videos of a narrator reading each of those versions as well.


He's just trolling. I think he's on that Killa Bread again.
jeebling Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
😂
RobertHively Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
jeebling wrote:
Herfing Beer


What do you think about that quote, Jeebs?

Think Netanyahu intends to wipe out the Palestinians?



RobertHively Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
jeebling wrote:
Herfing Beer



Imo what he did was make a veiled genocidal threat toward the Palestinians last October(not just Hamas), using the Old Testament of the bible as a historical reference, and precedence.

South Africa (and others?) took Israel to the Hague (International Court of Justice) over this.

Based on Netanyahu's statements, statements from his cabinet, the IDF, the ICJ court arguments, and conditions on the ground, I think the Israeli govt, at least at one point, intended (intent) to wipe the Palestinians out. Genocide.

I'd guess they walk that back a little now considering they got taken to the Hague and the world is paying more attention than they were last fall. I hope that's the case, but maybe not. Time will tell.
jeebling Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
RobertHively wrote:
Imo what he did was make a veiled genocidal threat toward the Palestinians last October(not just Hamas), using the Old Testament of the bible as a historical reference, and precedence.

South Africa (and others?) took Israel to the Hague (International Court of Justice) over this.

Based on Netanyahu's statements, statements from his cabinet, the IDF, the ICJ court arguments, and conditions on the ground, I think the Israeli govt, at least at one point, intended (intent) to wipe the Palestinians out. Genocide.

I'd guess they walk that back a little now considering they got taken to the Hague and the world is paying more attention than they were last fall. I hope that's the case, but maybe not. Time will tell.


Robert, what I think and what I can argue are different things. I don’t think Netanyahu intends to wipe out all Palestinians but I do think he was quoting Samuel to stiffen the resolve of the Israelis. He knew of course that to completely wipe out Hamas (Amalek) many innocents would be killed by IDF. I think he was rallying the nation. I can’t give you honest arguments. I can only tell you what I think and what I believe. I can see why people would think otherwise and I don’t have any way or any desire to change anyone’s mind on the subject. If I thought I truly had an answer then I would have an argument for it. But for now, I can only go with what I think and believe. I hope that makes some sense.
RobertHively Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
jeebling wrote:
Robert, what I think and what I can argue are different things. I don’t think Netanyahu intends to wipe out all Palestinians but I do think he was quoting Samuel to stiffen the resolve of the Israelis. He knew of course that to completely wipe out Hamas (Amalek) many innocents would be killed by IDF. I think he was rallying the nation. I can’t give you honest arguments. I can only tell you what I think and what I believe. I can see why people would think otherwise and I don’t have any way or any desire to change anyone’s mind on the subject. If I thought I truly had an answer then I would have an argument for it. But for now, I can only go with what I think and believe. I hope that makes some sense.


I mentioned something like that on page two, post #48. I said maybe it's just political rhetoric but it sounds pretty "genocidey" to me. I know you learn toward rhetoric and I lean toward intent on genocide. Only time will tell.

I base what I think on hundreds of years of military history. This wouldn't be the first genocide rodeo, nor the last.


jeebling Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
I agree that it does sound pretty “genocidey” and that society has recent and ancient examples of genocide. If it turns out that I’m wrong then I’ll feel like a dupe but that will be the least of problems. I don’t think Netanyahu would make a speech with thinly veiled threats (intent) of genocide. That would be a stupid thing for him to do politically and diplomatically. But then the question of , will then why did he say such a thing in a prepared speech?, is left to be guessed at. And, as I mentioned, I do understand why people think that genocide is underway. Maybe I’m right. Maybe I’m gullible.
Speyside2 Online
#121 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
NIV. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” No mention of Bible is there?
Speyside2 Online
#122 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
NIV. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” No mention of Bible is there?
Speyside2 Online
#123 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
NLT. Now go and completely destroy the entire Amalekite nation—men, women, children, babies, cattle, sheep, goats, camels, and donkeys.” No mention of the word Bible.
Speyside2 Online
#124 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
King James. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. No mention of the word Bible.

Enjoy, you will still say the word Bible is used based on your internet and YouTube research. Again, I would suggest reading Samuel 15:3 in and of those versions of the Bible, even on the internet.
Abrignac Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
Speyside2 wrote:
King James. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. No mention of the word Bible.

Enjoy, you will still say the word Bible is used based on your internet and YouTube research. Again, I would suggest reading Samuel 15:3 in and of those versions of the Bible, even on the internet.


What is your point?
Speyside2 Online
#126 Posted:
Joined: 11-11-2021
Posts: 2,419
The quote that Netanyahu said was " Remember what Amalek did to you.". This is 6 specific words found in Deuteronomy 25:19. Also, Netanyahu said our holy scriptures. Those 6 words are used in at least 1 Holocaust Museum, and a Holocaust memorial near The Hague. Certainly, in these 2 locations the words are not taken to mean genocide of Germanic people, also the word Bible was never used. I was hoping RH would do enough research on his own to learn this. I tried not to call him out on the fact that using Samuel 15:3 is incorrect. I felt this would be somewhat nasty. Though anyone using Dave's Killer Bread is talking about ancient history in my opinion. That was originally a reference about me being nasty on here. He is someone who does not follow the crowd just because they are the crowd. While I disagree with many of his opinions, I can still respect them. His opinion on this is at least based in part on irresponsible news reporting. I assume this is to promote their own agenda. So, in turn I would ask why you are interested in what my point is? If you feel the need to verify what I am saying is correct, then do a deep dive into this. While not obvious because of the massive disinformation it can none the less be found.
RobertHively Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 01-14-2015
Posts: 1,893
Speyside2 wrote:
The quote that Netanyahu said was " Remember what Amalek did to you.". This is 6 specific words found in Deuteronomy 25:19. Also, Netanyahu said our holy scriptures. Those 6 words are used in at least 1 Holocaust Museum, and a Holocaust memorial near The Hague. Certainly, in these 2 locations the words are not taken to mean genocide of Germanic people, also the word Bible was never used. I was hoping RH would do enough research on his own to learn this. I tried not to call him out on the fact that using Samuel 15:3 is incorrect. I felt this would be somewhat nasty. Though anyone using Dave's Killer Bread is talking about ancient history in my opinion. That was originally a reference about me being nasty on here. He is someone who does not follow the crowd just because they are the crowd. While I disagree with many of his opinions, I can still respect them. His opinion on this is at least based in part on irresponsible news reporting. I assume this is to promote their own agenda. So, in turn I would ask why you are interested in what my point is? If you feel the need to verify what I am saying is correct, then do a deep dive into this. While not obvious because of the massive disinformation it can none the less be found.



Did you read the article? You couldn't have. The author is saying "our bible". They're his words. Not from the bible. He said, and quoting "our Bible" then goes on to the Samuel quote.

Hively Post #2: "I simply do not support Israel's genocide of the Palestinians whatsoever, and I'm not a "far-left agitator and Islamist-sympathizing activist." Just a guy that doesn't enjoy seeing an entire group of people being wiped off of the earth."

That's what the last section of Deuteronomy 25 indeed says: "Therefore it shall be, when the Lord your God has given you rest from your enemies all around, in the land which the Lord your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, that you will blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

If that's what you, Fenster, DMV, ZRX and Stogie think, then own it. Join up, strap up, go kill some women, children and Hamas. Kill em all. But on the other hand, spare me the "western enlightenment" and religious reformation speech.

I couldn't believe that's what Israel used as a defense. Bc it, too, called for "Amalek" to be wiped off the earth. Lol Holiday/museum quote or not...

Also, I mentioned all of that (post #2) before Ray posted the article with the Samuel quote. So, no matter which Amalek reference you think Netanyahu used, in this context (of war) they are both veiled genocidal threats, or as Jeebs argued, dangerous political rhetoric. And as I said, time will tell.

And for the record, ever since the Cbid Covid Wars, I'm not interested in your opinion about anything. I'm not interested in your opinion specifically, not everybody that disagreed with me about "Covid".

I don't like talking to you in general. If I want to know your opinion I'll ask Fenster. Why do you care, at all, what my opinion is on the happenings in the newest theater of WW3? I'm just a Qbert, remember?

You couldn't even wrap your mind around the fact that Thomas Di Lorenzo was the one that said "Our Bible", not Samuel and certainly not me. I think he was kinda trolling Bibi there or maybe it was a typo. I don't care either way.

I didn't even post the article, Ray did. Why don't you make a thread about blocking him for his thought crimes. Oh that's right, you already did.
Stogie1020 Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,371
Robert, I have not seen you decry the genocidal threats (or actions, frankly) of Hamas at all, just some veiled biblical reference no one can agree on by Bibi.

The premise of this thread (and more specifically your initial reply) was that Israel is comitting genocide. Do you actually believe that? Do you believe that Hamas wants to wipe the earth of Israel and all Israelis?
jeebling Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
Speyside2 wrote:
The quote that Netanyahu said was " Remember what Amalek did to you.". This is 6 specific words found in Deuteronomy 25:19. Also, Netanyahu said our holy scriptures. Those 6 words are used in at least 1 Holocaust Museum, and a Holocaust memorial near The Hague. Certainly, in these 2 locations the words are not taken to mean genocide of Germanic people, also the word Bible was never used. I was hoping RH would do enough research on his own to learn this. I tried not to call him out on the fact that using Samuel 15:3 is incorrect. I felt this would be somewhat nasty. Though anyone using Dave's Killer Bread is talking about ancient history in my opinion. That was originally a reference about me being nasty on here. He is someone who does not follow the crowd just because they are the crowd. While I disagree with many of his opinions, I can still respect them. His opinion on this is at least based in part on irresponsible news reporting. I assume this is to promote their own agenda. So, in turn I would ask why you are interested in what my point is? If you feel the need to verify what I am saying is correct, then do a deep dive into this. While not obvious because of the massive disinformation it can none the less be found.


This is an excellent summary and the details do matter. The nitty gritty details make a difference when we are talking about Netanyahu and if his intent is genocide. Not that you need my help with your comment. I guess I’m just saying thanks for telling me something I didn’t know.
jeebling Offline
#130 Posted:
Joined: 08-04-2015
Posts: 1,276
RobertHively wrote:
Did you read the article? You couldn't have. The author is saying "our bible". They're his words. Not from the bible. He said, and quoting "our Bible" then goes on to the Samuel quote.

Hively Post #2: "I simply do not support Israel's genocide of the Palestinians whatsoever, and I'm not a "far-left agitator and Islamist-sympathizing activist." Just a guy that doesn't enjoy seeing an entire group of people being wiped off of the earth."

That's what the last section of Deuteronomy 25 indeed says: "Therefore it shall be, when the Lord your God has given you rest from your enemies all around, in the land which the Lord your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, that you will blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

If that's what you, Fenster, DMV, ZRX and Stogie think, then own it. Join up, strap up, go kill some women, children and Hamas. Kill em all. But on the other hand, spare me the "western enlightenment" and religious reformation speech.

I couldn't believe that's what Israel used as a defense. Bc it, too, called for "Amalek" to be wiped off the earth. Lol Holiday/museum quote or not...

Also, I mentioned all of that (post #2) before Ray posted the article with the Samuel quote. So, no matter which Amalek reference you think Netanyahu used, in this context (of war) they are both veiled genocidal threats, or as Jeebs argued, dangerous political rhetoric. And as I said, time will tell.

And for the record, ever since the Cbid Covid Wars, I'm not interested in your opinion about anything. I'm not interested in your opinion specifically, not everybody that disagreed with me about "Covid".

I don't like talking to you in general. If I want to know your opinion I'll ask Fenster. Why do you care, at all, what my opinion is on the happenings in the newest theater of WW3? I'm just a Qbert, remember?

You couldn't even wrap your mind around the fact that Thomas Di Lorenzo was the one that said "Our Bible", not Samuel and certainly not me. I think he was kinda trolling Bibi there or maybe it was a typo. I don't care either way.

I didn't even post the article, Ray did. Why don't you make a thread about blocking him for his thought crimes. Oh that's right, you already did.



Robert, you have cogent and thoughtful points. I hope you and I will be able to discuss thorny topics in the future. I respect your point of view and I’d like to hear more of it in the future. Maybe there will be a subject that I know more about and can mount a valid argument to engage you with. I think I’m going to bail out of this thread soon, respectfully. Peace to you brother.
rfenst Online
#131 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
RobertHively wrote:
Just a guy that doesn't enjoy seeing an entire group of people being wiped off of the earth."

blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

If I want to know your opinion I'll ask Fenster.

1. "... Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima. Three days later, a Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki. Over the next two to four months, the effects of the atomic bombings killed 90,000 to 146,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000 to 80,000 people in Nagasaki; roughly half occurred on the first day.

2. God was not always nice. He gave instructions to smite peoples, take lands with violence, allowed enslavement of, and wars against the Israelites. He meted harsh penalties for violation of his laws and orders, eg. Adam & Eve, every one who wasn't on Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gamora and instructions to Moses what to do to take the "promised land'; etc., etc.

3. A war wiping out the leadership of an enemy who vows destruction of a country and the killing of all its people; shoots thousands of missiles/rockets; and that also has recently attacked across the border with over 1,000 people killed and hundreds of others taken hostage- back into enemy territory for six months; has the right to route out its enemies' leadership and military and find the hostages as necessary to strengthen its border and reduce risk/chance of another outbreak of war for as long as possible. It is a defensive war to uphold/strengthen its border Such a war is JUST WAR IN MY OPINION.

It's up to Hamas to save its people from the calamity it caused to come down on them- before a more controlled, known to be oncoming, onslaught. They can resign, surrender, leave the enemy territory permanently, to save their people or risk death to too manyl.

3. As to "ask Fenster" you do not know much of my opinions.
Abrignac Offline
#132 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,327
Speyside2 wrote:
The quote that Netanyahu said was " Remember what Amalek did to you.". This is 6 specific words found in Deuteronomy 25:19. Also, Netanyahu said our holy scriptures. Those 6 words are used in at least 1 Holocaust Museum, and a Holocaust memorial near The Hague. Certainly, in these 2 locations the words are not taken to mean genocide of Germanic people, also the word Bible was never used. I was hoping RH would do enough research on his own to learn this. I tried not to call him out on the fact that using Samuel 15:3 is incorrect. I felt this would be somewhat nasty. Though anyone using Dave's Killer Bread is talking about ancient history in my opinion. That was originally a reference about me being nasty on here. He is someone who does not follow the crowd just because they are the crowd. While I disagree with many of his opinions, I can still respect them. His opinion on this is at least based in part on irresponsible news reporting. I assume this is to promote their own agenda. So, in turn I would ask why you are interested in what my point is? If you feel the need to verify what I am saying is correct, then do a deep dive into this. While not obvious because of the massive disinformation it can none the less be found.



Whoosh. That the sound of what I was asking going over your head.

Hively quoted an article that said Bibi used biblical language. You made a point of calling him and telling him to do his research because Bibi would not use biblical language since he is Jewish. However, Hively never stated in first person that Bibi was doing so. He simply quoted someone else. So your rant was meaningless.

On the other hand I recall you speaking earlier in the thread regarding how certain parts of the Torah became books of the Bible. If in fact Bibi quoted from the Torah a passage that is also found in the Bible it is as accurate to say that he used Biblical language as it is to say he used language from the Torah.

rfenst Online
#133 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,360
Abrignac wrote:
Whoosh. That the sound of what I was asking going over your head.

Hively quoted an article that said Bibi used biblical language. You made a point of calling him and telling him to do his research because Bibi would not use biblical language since he is Jewish. However, Hively never stated in first person that Bibi was doing so. He simply quoted someone else. So your rant was meaningless.

On the other hand I recall you speaking earlier in the thread regarding how certain parts of the Torah became books of the Bible. If in fact Bibi quoted from the Torah a passage that is also found in the Bible it is as accurate to say that he used Biblical language as it is to say he used language from the Torah.


ONE POINT: JEWS DO NOT INCLUDE THE NEW TESTAMENT IN ANY ASPECT OF RELIGION OR THEOLOGY.
We don't call anything the Old Testament for religious purpose.
Jews refer to Torah and Judaic interpretations. That's all.
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