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New postage stamp
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Tobasco Offline
#1 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 8:07 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

Here is the new postage stamp that will be issued in September. Isn't it awesome? I hope this is clear enough to see detail!

Mag
71250.jpg
Tobasco Offline
#2 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 8:33 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
Top ^
rck_1 Offline
#3 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 8:36 AM EST
Joined: 01-28-2003
Posts: 656
That rocks, hopefully they will issue it in a collectors edition sheet!
Lowman Offline
#4 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 8:40 AM EST
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
That's great! It's a nice tribute.
Charlie Offline
#5 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 8:48 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Yes, it is awesome, but:

Some group of people in this country (and ACLU will back them) or another left wing group will probably object to this stamp!

I certainly hope not, but you can never tell what will happen!

Charlie
CJBully Offline
#6 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 10:35 AM EST
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
No offense to the christians here but I do believe that the USPS and federal government are at a minimum nondenominational. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this "stamp" to be issued.
Santyth Offline
#7 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 1:05 PM EST
Joined: 11-17-2002
Posts: 107
And exactly what about the pic is specifically christian?
CJBully Offline
#8 Posted: Fri, Jan 31 2003, 1:24 PM EST
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
I must have read into it. The hands open and palms up mean he/she doesn't have possession of a weapon.
[email protected] Offline
#9 Posted: Sat, Feb 1 2003, 12:44 PM EST
Joined: 02-01-2002
Posts: 162
As much as I HATE to say it, I agree that I will believe it when I see it.

There are too many people that would get "ofended" by this. They feel that religion is be "forced upon them"... Of course they see no problem with forcing THEIR culture on us... But that is always another story.

It is a beautiful and fitting tribute. I just don't see it happening.
jdrabinski Offline
#10 Posted: Sat, Feb 1 2003, 4:28 PM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
What is wrong with not wanting religious symbols on our national stuff? We don't live in a theocracy. So don't treat the world like we do. That's why I am glad I live here...no national religion. Images like this presuppose everyone is a christian. We're not.

It is also pretty disrespectful to take a specifically christian symbol of god (and that is, believe me...it violates jewish bans on idols, for one) and use it to memorialize people of all faiths and non-faiths who died. Why does the christian god have to be a part of it? Is that an appropriate way to memorialize the jewish, muslim, buddhist, hindu, and so on victims? Christians were only part of the religious heritage of those who died.

Inadvertently, this is actually a disrespectful symbol. I don't think it is meant to be, but a moment of reflection will tell us all that it will be to many. Out of respect for the multi-faith and non-faith character of the victims, let's have a non-religious and solemn memorial stamp.

John
Tobasco Offline
#11 Posted: Sat, Feb 1 2003, 5:29 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809

John, I can see your point. But only the athiest part, it is a little touchy in my opinion.

But I'm a Christian, and looking at this closer now, I dont think that it "must" be assumed it is Christian entity.

Usually a picture including Christ, wouldnt exclude his head.

It only shows open hands in a cloud, like it is a spiritual entity, but I think that because the hands are white, that it is assumed it is Jesus.

Without anything but hands, the average citizen that does believe in a God, can interpret it the way they want. Maybe if the hands werent "white" it would be more "politically correct", hard to say.

Now, about an athiest seeing this. I agree that this stamp wont be as moving emotionally. But I believe that this very small minority of people. Their opinions & feelings DO count too, but I think in some circumstances, there needs to be a little tolerance given to the majority.

We have God in our lives everyday, and dont think much about it, until something new like this comes out.

Our money mentions God, in court you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Our pledge of allegience mentions god. Many politcal positions are sworn in with a hand on a bible.

This country is made up overwelmingly, of religious people of all types.

I like the stamp, but I see your point of view and respect it. It will be interesting what becomes of it.

Mag
Tobasco Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, Feb 1 2003, 5:39 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
John
I realize this is a little off the main subject, but here goes. Do athiests, when they die have a funeral?

If there is one, is it totaly void of any religious words? I dont know, can anyone answer that? If there are any, isnt that being hypocritical? Just curious.

Mag
CJBully Offline
#13 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 4:03 AM EST
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
Mag,

Just because "your religous entity" has white hands and wears a white robe doesn't mean everyones "entity" looks or dresses the same. It has nothing to do with being politically correct, just being sensitive to others beliefs. Just a little food for thought.
Tobasco Offline
#14 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 4:24 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809
CJ, you may be correct. But, I think the artist had nothing but "good" intentions. Hopefully it can be resolved with a design that everyone likes.

Mag
jdrabinski Offline
#15 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 6:54 AM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
I agree with the above re: the representation of god. Also, for many religions (and christian sects as well), representing god in any way is blasphemous (see the Ten Commandments...no idols). So to memorialize people of many faiths with a representation of god is problematic. (I agree that the intention was good; the reality of things is probably different than the artist knew/anticipated. That's why there needs to be dialogue and discussion).

Further, and this is a HUGE question, it naturally leads to the question: where was god when all these innocent people were killed? If god has such 'big hands' (representing power and goodness, traditionally), why didn't god use that power and goodness to save the lives of the victims? Huge question, I know, perhaps an unanswerable question, but one such a portrait might raise.

I like people asking big questions...rethinking the stamp...ha ha.

Lastly, re: athiests and funerals. Mag, this is as particular as the person, I suspect. But generally, some might want religious funerals out of respect for their family's religious traditions, whether or not the person personally believed. I can imagine wanting a church funeral because my mother is devout (especially if I were to die when she's still alive). It comforts others, so I can imagine wanting that. Also, a non-religious funeral service is perfectly common. Doesn't matter where you think death takes us, the death of a friend or parent or sibling is a LOSS that people want to gather and mourn. That's mostly what funerals are, anyway, so it wouldn't be any different for a non-believer...just absent the religious language. Does that make sense? Good question. I hope this is a decent answer.

John
JonR Offline
#16 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 9:37 AM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
I have to say the stamp sucks big time. If that's the best they can come up with we are in trouble. First the Eagle is facing away from the towers with a look of unconcern, Second we all have a permanent picture of the towers embedded in our memory we don't need another picture, Third our flag is hanging limp and beaten looking, and Lastly if in fact that is Christ in the picture big mistake based on his idealogy of turning the other cheek! JonR
Tobasco Offline
#17 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 10:42 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2003
Posts: 2,809


JonR

If you think we are in big trouble over a stamp, then you have your priorities screwed up.

Second, I dont think the Eagle would be put in a picture with his face in the smoke. And what sort of expression would you put on an Eagle anyway? This is how Eagles look. The expession of unconcern, you claim there is, I dont see.

Third the flag doesnt have a beaten look. The shot here is of a low resolution, and may be why its not smoother looking. Next the flag does hang limp when the wind isnt blowing. Whats wrong with that?

Last, even if it was Christ, which it doesnt specify, what does turning the other cheek have to do with this picture?

I do respect your opinion, but not one of your critisisms make any sense to me.

Mag
usahog Offline
#18 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
as I view this picture I see the Eagle as though it is sitting purched through the smoke of a disaster that had just acured on its homeland and he has a look of determination in his eye...furthermore the flag is this Country's National Symbol of Unity/Liberty and Freedom and if this is Christ he is holding out his hands as to symbolize the strength needed to get through such a Tragedy... I feel this is a Great Impresion/Symbol needed in this Nation where the at one time all this had Founded this Great Nation passed down by our for fathers in the drafting of the United States of America...

JD instead of asking where and why God wasn't there that Day... show me where he Wasn't there that Day... they estimated at that time and furthermore to this day.. on any givin day there would have been anwhere between 20-50,000 people in those towers at the time they had fallen... and if you read some of the survivors testomony's as to there encounters on events and that they should have parished.. yet were spared and many of them.. not all White Caucasions had mentioned there saving being from God...maybe today two years later they have a change of view... but not many...
it is thoughts and views like yours that our Constitution is Eroding away...
from what I gather you do not even live here in the USA my guess is a canadian resident??
doesn't matter you don't have to leave this country if you are not a citizen of it...
I think this stamp should stay and those who apose it should pack there **** and GTF Out
this country will grow stronger when the socialistic/communistic Liberalistic views of others take a hike....

my .02 cents worth
Hog
JonR Offline
#19 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 5:29 PM EST
Joined: 02-19-2002
Posts: 9,740
And worth every penny ! JonR
xrundog Offline
#20 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 6:32 PM EST
Joined: 01-17-2002
Posts: 2,212
Well, it's a nice piece of art I guess. It looks like it would be pricey to make into a stamp. Will rates go up again? Let's keep them the same or better yet, lower them and have plain stamps. If you like this then buy a poster of it and have it framed. From an Islamic point of view (radical) the open arms could be God raining vengance on the infidel. Where was God? He was right there! He gave us free will. The bad guys get to do bad stuff because they choose to. It's up to us to stop them. Otherwise God might stop you from spanking your kid. Or eating that second piece of pie (you're heading for arterioscleosis). God wants us to do the right things on our own. He can fix it all in the end anyway. That's what I believe.
jdrabinski Offline
#21 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 7:29 PM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
usahog,

That's great...I was waiting for someone to freak out and tell me to leave the country.

Do I even need to respond to that? Dude, I live here, born and raised here, my family and friends are here, and you want me to leave? Rather than participate in democratic systems for change? This democracy is NOT JUST YOURS. It is OURS, which means you have to live with me agitating for change and I have to live with you agitating for things to stay the same.

What if I turned the tables on you? Let me just say it: If you don't like the liberals in this country, and there are a lot of us everywhere (Gore won the popular vote, Clinton elected twice), go move to a country where there are none. Leave now, please.

I don't actually believe that, that you should move if you don't like it. I said it to make a point: it feels pretty **** to have it said to you, doesn't it?

Questioning the powers that be and the status quo is the most patriotic act I can imagine. It exercises the freedoms protected by that constitution you think I'm eroding. Your comments seem pretty anti-american, come to think of it, what with your trying to silence my expression of views and appeals to change what I think are injustices.

This is not your country. It is ours. You are no more an american than I am, dude. Don't act like you are.

John
usahog Offline
#22 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 8:29 PM EST
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
LoL jd looks like I hit another Nerve... you don't like the way I debate Huh??? well to bad I live here too and yes the two of us will just have to live with that...
(What if I turned the tables on you? Let me just say it: If you don't like the liberals in this country, and there are a lot of us everywhere (Gore won the popular vote, Clinton elected twice), go move to a country where there are none. Leave now, please.)
during the Clinton Admin. I had looked into a few job oppertunities that would have landed me living outside of the United States.. the land that I Love... it was a Check and Balance I had a job in Denmark... I passed it by... the one I thought that would have been of Great Interest to me was working in Isreal... and had they accepted me I would probably be posting from there tonight... but that didn't happen and I rode the storm out with Billyboy and Joebob Gore... saddened at what was being Raped and Pilaged from our Constitution and our Country... the demolizing he had done to the Military and to the Families of this Country...
but I don't have to worry about this Now... there is a man in the Office now with people in places who can make a great change for the Better I hope...Just Hope its not to late...

Hog

btw you didn't answer me about showing me that God wasn't there??? or did that simpleton Mind of your slip a gear???
jjohnson28 Offline
#23 Posted: Sun, Feb 2 2003, 10:51 PM EST
Joined: 09-12-2000
Posts: 7,914
Just not worth the effort...
jdrabinski Offline
#24 Posted: Mon, Feb 3 2003, 5:13 AM EST
Joined: 08-16-2002
Posts: 794
usahog,

I a cracking up at the image of you going to Israel...my friend, that is one of the most socialistic countries you will find. The legacy of the kibbutz permeates the entire social and political structure of the country. I suspect you'd be longing for the moderate politics of Gore and Clinton after not too long.

On the god thing...whatever. I couldn't figure out what you were saying. Are you saying the 'great merciful god' showed himself by only sending three thousand innocent people to a most horrific death? Damn. That is cold-hearted.

For what it is worth, I don't think this disaster means god does not exist. Not at all. As someone mentioned, there is the story about god that says 'we' have free will, for better or worse. In this case, for worse, and it isn't god's fault. That's a plausible position, I think.

But I also know this question tugs at the hearts of believers: why would an all-powerful, all-good, all-knowing god stand idly by while thousands die a horrific death? I am not criticizing faith here; it is a natural question, one that is probably unanswerable. I simply meant that the stamp raises the troubling question again, quite directly for me.

I have in mind Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and memoirist, who said that, given what he had seen and the utter absence of god's interventions, he had a lot of questions for god to answer upon his (Wiesel's) death. Wiesel is a devout believer. Quite orthodox. But he has questions, as I suspect we all do. It is ok to have questions, by the way. It doesn't mean you don't believe. That's why they call it faith, not knowledge.

Finally, usahog, thanks for telling me I have a simpleton's mind. Glad to see things can sink so low so fast. Love you, man.

You must be a motorcycle rider, right? Guessing from your name. I am also guessing from your hostility toward me that we can't take a ride anytime soon. Bummer. We might have more in common than you think.

John
CJBully Offline
#25 Posted: Mon, Feb 3 2003, 6:44 AM EST
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
jd,

Beware of the "axis of evil" that lurks here. You will be reported to Mr. Big and attempts at re-education will begin. Btw, Welcome.
cwilhelmi Offline
#26 Posted: Mon, Feb 3 2003, 7:44 AM EST
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
jd,
As CJ said be casreful, educating people to the FACT that not all Americans are conservative christians could cause a title wave of free thought!

Another FACT for everyone, non-religious persons make up 14.1% of the religious mix in the US. That number grew from 8.2% ten years ago, does anyone doubt that it will continue to rise?

Not only is it our right to question those in power, it is our duty as Americans!! Without that concept, there would be no America!!
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