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Last post 17 months ago by stogie30. 27 replies replies.
Define "complexity" of cigar flavor
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les017 Offline
#1 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:37 AM EST
Joined: 10-09-2006
Posts: 126
I understand the basis of this term but am really trying to figure out what MOST people mean when they say "complex".

Is it the fact that the flavor changes as you smoke OR does it have more to do with an intermingling of flavors on each puff.
Maybe it's some of each?

help a bro??
teedubbya Offline
#2 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:45 AM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
both or either to me.

but I'm not much help am I?
jackconrad Offline
#3 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Number of changes in power, flavours,spiciness.
jackconrad Offline
#4 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Number of changes in power, flavours,spiciness.
jackconrad Offline
#5 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 06-09-2003
Posts: 67,461
Similar to many women i know.
jpotts Offline
#6 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 11:57 AM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
I'd say it's flavor / strength change as you smoke.

Unless you've got a real sensitive pallete, discerning minute flavors is a tricky task.
Bluedevil Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 12:00 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2006
Posts: 7,383
#3 is right, any cigar that takes you on a rollercoaster ride is a good stick!
Slimboli Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 12:06 PM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
... the opposite of 'one dimensional'.

Complexity (to me) comes from the number of different countries that contribute their tobacco leaves to a cigar ...

... a what types of leaves that they are.

Blended just right ... they produce a 'complex' cigar.
Bluedevil Offline
#9 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 12:06 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2006
Posts: 7,383
As far as differant tastes in a cigar, I like to quote Bill Cosby
"As far as me, I'm going to set down and pull out a little treat I've been saving for a long time. It has hints of toasted oatsand dried fruit with cinnamon notes and a coca finish.
No it's not a cigar.



It's a chocolate granola bar"
Slimboli Offline
#10 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 12:08 PM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
You guys are confusing 'flavor profiles' with 'complexity'.
les017 Offline
#11 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 4:41 PM EST
Joined: 10-09-2006
Posts: 126
just before I replied "glad I asked", slimboli comes in and squares it all up.

Thanks all, it's much what I expected...just like evrything else, each has a different viewpoint.
wer Offline
#12 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 7:46 PM EST
Joined: 02-13-2003
Posts: 1,633
I don't think origin of tobacco adequately defines complexity. There are many "puros" (originating from a single country) that exhibit incredible complexity.

The term was likely co-opted from the wine literature where it is defined as:
A combination of richness, depth of flavour, intensity, balance, harmony and finesse. An essential element in all great wines (and hence, in most good cigars too).
sw48362 Offline
#13 Posted: Thu, Dec 28 2006, 9:08 PM EST
Joined: 09-14-2004
Posts: 9,746
^yea what he said.
Slimboli Offline
#14 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 2:53 AM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
wer ... I think the origin of tobacco very much has something to do with a cigars complexity ... where the tobacco is grown (and the types of leaves, ligero, etc.) will play a big part ... and contribute a great deal to how complex it will end up.

But you do have a good answer ... and I agree with your point.
Lowman Offline
#15 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 2:56 AM EST
Joined: 12-03-2002
Posts: 6,982
Slim, what the hell you doing up so early... or late???
Slimboli Offline
#16 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 3:46 AM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Early my friend ... the time I get up for work (UGH!!!) every morning.
Slimboli Offline
#17 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 4:12 AM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
I guess the point I was trying to make wer, is even a 'puro' may have different 'types' of leaves used in in it ... even though grown in the same country ... which adds to the cigars complexity.

The wrapper may be grown from a specific tobacco variety (or seed) ... and be sun grown, while the filler may be a different variety of seed altogether, or the bolder 'ligero' leaf that comes from the top of the plant. And the binder of still another variety of tobacco that may have had a longer fermentation process.

Having these variables ... the leaves that went into the 'puro' that was grown on the same farm, will add greatly to the complexity of that cigar.
jpotts Offline
#18 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 5:52 AM EST
Joined: 06-14-2006
Posts: 28,811
Slimboli:

While I agree with your assessment, to most people complexity means something else. Not everyone is going to slice one of their sticks down the middle to dissect it, and figure out what leaves were used. They're going to go by what they taste (or what they don't taste) to state their thoughts on a cigar's "complexity."

I think that's more for focus of the initial inquiry.


I use the "sucks / not-sucks" methodology.
Slimboli Offline
#19 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 10:32 AM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Of course not everyone is going to slice one of their sticks down the middle to dissect it, and figure out what leaves were used ...

... you have to go by what the manufacture states it is made of.

All I was stating, is those factors will definately play a part in what makes a cigars complex. The taste is the final deciding factor ... and taste being subjective ... it will have a different outcome depending on who is doing the smoking, when they are smoking it, their mood at the time, what they just had to eat or drink, etc.
wer Offline
#20 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 3:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-13-2003
Posts: 1,633
yeah, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you Slim, but rather clarifying and elaborating.
I think we're pretty much in agreement on this and while I knew what you meant in your first post, someone new could have misinterpreted your statement to mean: many countries = high complexity; 1 country = no complexity.
I know you weren't insinuating that puros lack complexity. Moreover, I completely agree that multiple plant parts (upper/lower, sun/shade, etc.) can greatly contribute to a cigars complexity. What it really boils down to, however, is the skill of the blender. A cigar with tobacco from multiple countries and multiple plant parts might be a complete muddled mess or one of those masterful delights that we all seek out. While most understand the value of high quality tobacco (filler, binder, wrapper), the human element is too often unappreciated in this endeavor.
Slimboli Offline
#21 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 4:04 PM EST
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Yep ... what we just had was a very informative converstaion. Maybe someone out there will pick up on our discussion and learn something ... LOL!

I know I did ...

Speaking of a nice complex 'puro' ... it's the Pueblo Dominicano II that I'm smoking right now. Man ... what a delight. Not too many 100% Dominican 'puros' out there (OpusX being one) ... and for the price, I would rather smoke one of these any day of the week over the OpusX.

Now I've gone and said it ... so watch the biddng go up on these. But since I've got my two boxes at around $50 each ...

... let the bidding begin ... LOL!
wer Offline
#22 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 4:07 PM EST
Joined: 02-13-2003
Posts: 1,633
i've got some of those PD2s tucked away in my office humi, but I haven't given them a whirl yet. May have to reach for one on the drive home Tues (nice to have a few days off - plenty of time for all the honey-dos, lol).
les017 Offline
#23 Posted: Fri, Dec 29 2006, 10:00 PM EST
Joined: 10-09-2006
Posts: 126
ah, the trend setter Slimboli.
"He smokes 'em so i gotsta get me some"


.....now excuse me while i check my bid status ha
Palama Offline
#24 Posted: Tue, Jan 3 2023, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 02-05-2013
Posts: 23,704
I forget who asked but here’s something for him to read.
LeeBot Offline
#25 Posted: Tue, Jan 3 2023, 9:36 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2020
Posts: 2,007
I think of complexity as a cigar whose flavor evolves and changes as you smoke it. I don't have the palate to pick out a bunch of different flavors from one puff. Unless it's garbage juice. I can usually distinguish that from the other flavors.

I like complexity, but I don't think of it as necessarily always being a virtue. If a cigar has a flavor that I like, and I'm digging it, I don't want it to change up on me. I am more than content with linear and one-dimensional, if it's the right dimension. Some people find that boring.
DrafterX Offline
#26 Posted: Wed, Jan 4 2023, 8:30 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Slimboli wrote:

Speaking of a nice complex 'puro' ... it's the Pueblo Dominicano II that I'm smoking right now.



This was a fine cigar.. Herfing
stogie30 Offline
#27 Posted: Thu, Jan 5 2023, 5:14 PM EST
Joined: 11-10-2011
Posts: 39
its pretty much a marketing term but there are definitely cigars out there that you just get a one dimensional flavor and that's it where others keep you interested all the way through. complex just means its tastes and smells good to you ha.
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