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Last post 19 years ago by CigarPrimate. 28 replies replies.
Halloween miscellany
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CigarPrimate Offline
#1 Posted: Sat, Oct 30 2004, 9:27 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
My 4.5 year old really wants to talk about halloween creepiness. He digs the creepiness of it and wants to know about it. I tell him fall is when things die, leaves die, old people die, but death is ok, it's a part of the life cycle. I remind him that in spring comes easter, when Jesus gets reborn; there are eggs then; ovaries fer Christ's sake! It's seasonal I tell him. Life is reborn in the spring and stuff dies in the fall, that's why we have hilidays about it. His little ears bristle with it all. He reminds me that death is ok because he really likes crushing insects in the summer, he's caught up in the halloween spirit; the fear is overcome by the prospect of getting all that candy. It's a crazy world man, now how am I going to explain Christmas to him?
Seth Gekko Offline
#2 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 4:51 AM EST
Joined: 01-30-2004
Posts: 2,311
Old people die in the fall?
Skatty2hotty Offline
#3 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 5:40 AM EST
Joined: 05-29-2001
Posts: 288
Jesus had ovaries?
CigarPrimate Offline
#4 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 7:14 AM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Yup, old-timers bite the dust (rot, and get scary, inducing kids to beg for chocolate to relieve the stress), and Jesus brings easter eggs.

Those are the pagan exigencies represented by the holidays. Fall is to death what spring is to life. Halloween effectively represents the harvest, death, the coming of winter, and all the uncertainty ice age winters brought to our neolithic relatives. At the polar opposite, spring represents life and rebirth, aptly symbolized by the egg; which, I don't recall any reference to in the new testement: because it's another pre-biblical, pagan symbol of an equinox.

I guess it's not too soon to talk about Christmas either. December 25th isn't Jesus' birthday, but a more ancient solstice holiday that was represented by the Saturninas festival in Rome, at the time Christianity was adopted as an official religion under Constantine.

We may have Walmarts, bigscreen TVs, and the web, but we still hop to the tune of the earth's seasons, like our animal skin clad, drug taking, god fearing cousins of the past did; as far as the holidays are concerened at least.
Charlie Offline
#5 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 7:17 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Cigar Primate

Good ideas! Kids grow thru the curious stage, but all seem to have a different type of curiousity!

Charlie
billyjackson Offline
#6 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 12:49 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
What;s this crap about 12/25 not being Jesus' birthday??!!! Damn I'm sick of these liberal pagans spewing their ignorance on these boards!!
PMoreno349 Offline
#7 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 1:01 PM EST
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
primate, you may be overthinking it for the 4.5 year old. maybe the facts are best saved for when he is 8-10, and have fun with the fantasy now... because if he takes after his old man, it won't last long.
CigarPrimate Offline
#8 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 1:04 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Looks like the good Lord almighty was birthed by the immaculate virgin around September. Other dates have been estimated too, but it would be sort of hard to pinpoint it accurately due to the whacky logistics of deep history. Here are two sites (Christians sites mind you) with their estimates:

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/holidays-and-holy-days/happy-birthday-lord-jesus

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/birthday.htm

Oh, and happy Saturnmas in advance.
CigarPrimate Offline
#9 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 1:13 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Actually PM, the most effective way to arrive at the root causes that underlie our modern holidays is to oversimplify and think like a toddler; a method used estensively by Levi-Strauss, Freud, Jung, Joseph Campbell et. al.

Fall = death-rot/sweet-harvest-candy

Spring = rebirth Jesus ovaries


The common theme to both festivals is fertility. Beats the hell out of the Hallmark version.
Seth Gekko Offline
#10 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 1:13 PM EST
Joined: 01-30-2004
Posts: 2,311
I guess I'm not too well educated. . .

. . this is interesting. . .

. . . what is it about autumn that causes the elderly to pass? I know the leaves die because of decreased sunlight, but I cannot imagine decreased sunlight is enough to give a person a stroke, heart attack or cancer, which are all common reasons for death in the elderly. . . . Now, pneumonia is more prevalent in winter, not Fall. . . . I admit I don't know too much about medicine, but I haven't heard of any illness or disease that claims the elderly particularly during the Fall. . . .

. . . are there any websites showing scientific statistics backing up this claim?

This is truly intersting, and I thank you for allowing me this opportunity to learn about this unique medical phenomenon. . . .
CigarPrimate Offline
#11 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 1:30 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
The 'old people' reference is a metaphor for the life (or seasonal) cycle, not a literal reference that old people die in higher numbers in the fall; probably the extreme temps of summer and winter do them in more than the moderate comfort of fall and spring.

The cycle of the seasons can be seen to roughly correspond to the life cycle of most organisms, but there are exceptions: spring(birth), summer(youth), fall(adulthood/middle age), & winter(old age). For those of you not there yet, take my word for it, by the end of middle age, scary things start to occur: teeth start to fall out, strange growths appear, hair starts growing in places where it shouldn't, and sometimes, an odd demintia becomes manifest; people come under the puzzling belief that they're omniscient: almost as bad as seen in the teen years, but not quite.

Happy Halloween
billyjackson Offline
#12 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Just because it is on a stupid website doesn't make it true. Those same people try to make you believe the world wasn't created in 6 days. That's the kind of thing that leads straight to hell.

Happy B-day Jesus....on 12/25.
PMoreno349 Offline
#13 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 3:27 PM EST
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
primate, I like your analysis, I was just thought it was taking some of the romance out of it for a 5 year old.
PMoreno349 Offline
#14 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 3:29 PM EST
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
oh... is the Old people dying out of context in that sentence, or did you really mean to say that old people die in the fall?
CigarPrimate Offline
#15 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 3:39 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
It was a metaphor PM. Death befalls old biota at season's end, biota includes people, therefore, death befalls people in the fall; mostly plants and other annuals though, in the literal sense. Literal meaning: old people, in the autumn of their lives, begin the rotting process. That's why so many evil Disney characters are old, why witches are old, why illness is seen as evil (the little girl in the movie Exorcist wasn't possessed, she was physically ill). Many of the Americans hung during the Salem witch trials were elderly.

Happy Halloween
erkwgz Offline
#16 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 5:59 PM EST
Joined: 10-07-2004
Posts: 10,840
Primate, sorry you are damned to the pits of hell for having doubts about the date of Jesus birth. I notice nothing was said about accepting Jesus as your own personal savior and believing he died for you sins. If that be the case even though I am a christian and believe above said statement I just might be in serious trouble. Any way your analogy about death in the Fall seems on the mark to me. But wouldn't death for humans be more typical for winter ? It seems to me that is when in olden times most of the dying would have taken place. With food shortages, cold weather etc. being more prevalent at that time of year it seems to me that the old and young i.e." the weakest" would drop like flies. Just a couple of thoughts. Erik P.s. I really enjoy your cigar reviews. What is your go to smoke these days?
Cigarick Offline
#17 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 6:25 PM EST
Joined: 07-28-2002
Posts: 3,078
Do we celebrate Mickey Mouese's birthday? Of course not. I do, however quietly, celebrate Newtonmas. But enough of that. What in the Hell is happening to Halloween? We had SEVEN hits tonight, and three of them were costumeless! I have to say that our porch looked great, thanks to my wife and daughter. I'm just sorry there weren't more trick-or-treaters to enjoy it. We will NEVER let Halloween die!
CigarPrimate Offline
#18 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 7:25 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
I want to address two people here, and I figure if it's not directed at myself, then hey, I'm probaly not that crazy.

Erk: Don't lament my sinful ways bro, because with as much fun as I've been having over the years with booze, tobacco, and loose women, it ought to be a sin; it's quite frankly that good. But your assessment of winter as the dying time rather than fall seems correct; just that fall is the introductory period into the halloween-head stage. On a time adjusted basis, modern times, as opposed to when we didn't have antibiotics and modern sanitary public water supplies, the fall (middle age) was the final days for many of our ancestors; we past middle age these days should probably give a passing nod to chemical smokestacks for the benefits they confer upon us: I personally would have croaked a couple of times if not for the auspices of technology.

Rick: Newtonmas indeed! My understanding was that he developed unorthodox religious views that led him to the heretical beliefs of the Arians, not to mention alchemical lusts. But every time I'm tooling down 280 @ 90 mph in my sub-compact I remember his holy dictum of F=ma, and Newton-mass prolly saves my -ass. I noticed a fall off in trick or treaters too this year. But damn, those little bitty kids are cute! They looked at me in my physician's outfit and syringe, and I could see in their faces ... 'oh no, not this sadist again!'
rayder1 Offline
#19 Posted: Sun, Oct 31 2004, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
I enjoyed your take on the time of year CigarPrimate. (BTW...when can u get up to 90 mph on 280? You're talking Calif. right? Must be a different 280)

Anyway...my kid's school re-named Halloween "Harvest Fest". That way it won't have any satanic or demonic connotation. Interesting way to make a non-secular holiday secular. If my memory serves me...the "Harvest Fest" holiday has Pagan origins. There has always been a connection with Paganism and earth worship, alchemy and witchcraft. So to pull a name switch from Halloween to "Harvest Fest"...gives it back to the Pagan origins...which...if it didn't insult those of stricter religious beliefs before...it sure as heck would now.

They even called a girl into the office for dressing my Herminy (from Harry Potter) saying the costume was a witch and wasn't allowed by school rules. They called her parents to get them to pick her up. The parents reminded the school that Herminy wasn't a witch yet. Anyway...they refused to let the school win that stupid battle.

Anyway...my littlest one (being raised Catholic) really liked the take on Halloween and Christianity as presented by the Trinity Channel. It supported halloween as a holiday and even gave it some religious connection that made sense to my 7 year old.

We need to let our kids enjoy the day without having to do battle on its meaning or origins. Just buy some candy...dress the kids out and send them hunting for sugar.
Skatty2hotty Offline
#20 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 2:05 AM EST
Joined: 05-29-2001
Posts: 288
BillyJackson: What;s this crap about 12/25 not being Jesus' birthday??!!! Damn I'm sick of these liberal pagans spewing their ignorance on these boards!!

I'm neither liberal or pagan, but I am curious why the date of Jesus's birth should matter? Shouldn't it be significant enough that all christians are celebrating it together?
billyjackson Offline
#21 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 12:01 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Skatty....

Purely joking.
billyjackson Offline
#22 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 12:02 PM EST
Joined: 08-19-2002
Posts: 2,860
Skatty....

Purely joking.
SteveS Offline
#23 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 12:10 PM EST
Joined: 01-13-2002
Posts: 8,751
CigarPrimate
Drop me a note at your convenience, will you?

fromsteves at hotmail dot com - yes, 'from' is part of the addy
18delta Offline
#24 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 1:46 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 3,235
i will not be baited into this one.....

study to show thyself approved.......

obviously, primate has done his homework....

i must agree with him regarding the holidays and their pagan origins. these traditions have been incorporated into the modern church over a period of many years. also, i am in agreement with primate that Christ's birthday was not dec. 25. though most christians "celebrate" Christ's birth on dec. 25, that does not mean that date was his actual birthday.

primate,

the only thing you left out was the christmas tree and the scripture to go along with it.....Jer ch. 10:2-8.

again, "study to show thyself approved....."
Skatty2hotty Offline
#25 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 2:08 PM EST
Joined: 05-29-2001
Posts: 288
Sorry Billy, you're response sounded too much like other posts. Your sarcasm went over my head.
CigarPrimate Offline
#26 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 2:42 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
18delta,

Tree references get pretty diffuse. I've heard so many legends. Some of Jung's suggestions about the evergreen tree being a symbol for the cross, as well as for rebirth, were interesting. One of the most amusing stories I heard was that the Christmas tree was originally used in olden English times as follows: In the large halls of the royal families, who were so keen and ready to kill one another, during the Christ-Mass, a row of evergreens were set up dividing the hall, and competing factions would take turns approaching the trees and tying their gifts intended for their rivals on them. They would retreat, allowing their rivals to then approach the trees and tie their gifts on them. In this way the murderous extended family members could exchange holiday gifts without having to draw near enough to one another to be able to run one another through with a sword.
CigarPrimate Offline
#27 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 5:39 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
It's been awhile since I read Jung, but thinking back on it, I believe he suggested the evergreen as symbolic of eternal life; it would be deciduous trees that would get reborn, anyway...
baracuda Offline
#28 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 6:33 PM EST
Joined: 10-03-2004
Posts: 833
I have a question ????

Whatever date is Jesus' birthday is fine . Let's assume it's 12/25.

Here's the question.
If he lived 30sum years before death then arose after three days. Why does the date of the ressurection change from year to year.

Cuda
CigarPrimate Offline
#29 Posted: Mon, Nov 1 2004, 8:49 PM EST
Joined: 09-18-2004
Posts: 701
Trying to apply strict dates to mythical legends is a crap shoot. The further back in time you go the fuzzier the accuracy gets as a general rule, and ballpark figuring is an absolute requirement. The sabbath dates tend to change with the society that used them at the time. My original point was that the major holiday clusters tend to occur on the equinoxes and solstices, because these times represent marked changes in the living conditions of the populations observing them at the time; and seasons have remained fairly constant since the last ice age, and therefore represent opportunistic comparison points for we moderns to relate to our long ago ancestors. With cultural holidays, it's always interesting to evaluate what they mean to us today un relation to what they might have meant to some population long ago; sometimes the correlation is still similar, and sometimes it's so dissociated as to have a different meaning entirely. There is some good analysis on this type of thing my Karl Jung and Joseph Campbell. Claude Levi-Strauss is one of my favorites, especially with regards to the American indians. But alas, another autumn has come and gone; next stop: the winter equinox & Christmas (the depth of winter brings the hope of spring and rebirth).
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