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DrafterX Offline
#101 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
I remember some discussions about Saddam may be sheltering ole Bin.. but that wasn't why we went in... We gave Saddam like 90 days or somethin to comply with the Nuke inspectors and he refused... so other than pull an Obama, Bush bombed the chit out out of the place... Saddam still wouldn't comply so we bombed some more... He coulda stopped it at any time... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#102 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
DrafterX wrote:
I remember some discussions about Saddam may be sheltering ole Bin.. but that wasn't why we went in... We gave Saddam like 90 days or somethin to comply with the Nuke inspectors and he refused... so other than pull an Obama, Bush bombed the chit out out of the place... Saddam still wouldn't comply so we bombed some more... He coulda stopped it at any time... Mellow

so we won that one! Musta been when the peoples were throwing roses at the feet of our soldiers...RIIIIIGHT!

Here's the odd part, I agreed with the right views at the time to stay out. We had and still have our choice of brutal dictatorships to meddle with and overthrow, and it never works out. Plus, we are very (business) selective where we get involved, it's not really about freedom.

As it was, several of the dictators became established with our support, including the anti-communist Saddam. And Saddam was contained prior to the Bush administration and...

I can't believe I'm having to write this a decade later.

Too boring, folks can dig up facts that support what they want to be true. Not interested in this fight anymore.

DrafterX Offline
#103 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
Ya, we had some good ones here over this... Laugh


Pretty sure I was right tho... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#104 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
DrafterX wrote:
Ya, we had some good ones here over this... Laugh


Pretty sure I was right tho... Mellow

could be. i really don't remember what either of us said.
DrafterX Offline
#105 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
I didn't mean you and I... just discussions in general... it was a bad deal all around. .. and I wish we didn't have had to go in... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#106 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
DrafterX wrote:
I didn't mean you and I... just discussions in general... it was a bad deal all around. .. and I wish we didn't have had to go in... Mellow

I'll agree again
delta1 Offline
#107 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
I wasn't involved then...so...Bush lied...American soldiers died...so there...betcha nobody ever said that...
MACS Offline
#108 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,584
He didn't lie. He relied on bad reports from the intelligence comunity, analysts, and not just ours. France, Germany, Russia... and both sides of congress supported it. These were folks who, after 9/11, did NOT want to underestimate terrorists any more.

So the Bush lied, people died rhetoric is complete BS. He did make mistakes based on some bad information, but it isn't like the information came only from us. It didn't. And as I've said... Saddam had plenty of time to move his chemical weapons to Syria. Where'd they get that sh*t they just used?? Yeah.

So to say he deliberately lied to go to war is completely false and patently partisan.
frankj1 Offline
#109 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Syria might have been supplied by Russia, Iran, or developed themselves in recent years.

I'd have doubts, though far from certain, that Saddam could have moved much out of his country during the no-fly-zone years. His borders were pretty locked...until he was run out.
DrafterX Offline
#110 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
I specifically remember trucks going to Syria at one time.. everyone thought it could have been the WMDs.. you'd think somebody woulda known for sure.. don't know if we had authority to interfer at that time... Mellow
frankj1 Offline
#111 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
that does sound familiar
tonygraz Offline
#112 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,173
Mac's loves yellow cake and forgets that some cigars come in aluminum tubes.
delta1 Offline
#113 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
MACS wrote:
He didn't lie. He relied on bad reports from the intelligence comunity, analysts, and not just ours. France, Germany, Russia... and both sides of congress supported it. These were folks who, after 9/11, did NOT want to underestimate terrorists any more.

So the Bush lied, people died rhetoric is complete BS. He did make mistakes based on some bad information, but it isn't like the information came only from us. It didn't. And as I've said... Saddam had plenty of time to move his chemical weapons to Syria. Where'd they get that sh*t they just used?? Yeah.

So to say he deliberately lied to go to war is completely false and patently partisan.


There are many reliable reports from the intelligence community that VP Cheney, a former head of the CIA, and with plenty of clout in the intelligence world, manipulated and falsified intel supporting the WMD in Iraq argument from US and European sources. Look up "the Italian letter+Iraq's WMD". French and German intel also couldn't find sources to support that claim.

There are reliable and ignored exculpatory evidence, as indicated by the outing of a CIA agent operating in Niger, Valerie Plame, who denied the WH claim that Iraq's yellow cake was originating there.

Internal documents from neo-con think tanks, whose members included Cheney and many of Bush's trusted senior advisers, that were produced before and near the beginning of GWB's first term, and before 9/11, were waiting for a reason to go to war in the Middle East, to establish more friendly pro-West governments (regime change). to provide a safer environment for Israel, and to establish a reliable source of fossil fuels, in that order.


...so blame it on the black guy for lying...didn't Gen. Powell make the case for going to war in Iraq in a speech to the UN?

edit: for an honest and un-biased assessment of US and British intelligence reports leading up to the War in Iraq, see the Center for Strategic and International Studies, widely considered a neutral and thorough source.

https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy_files/files/media/csis/pubs/040126_wmdintelllesmainrpt.pdf
DrafterX Offline
#114 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
Prolly fake news.... Mellow
Burner02 Offline
#115 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
Guess those that served are to stupid to understand anything about world events in the past 30 plus years.
tonygraz Offline
#116 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,173
Did you plagiarize that from a Trump speech ? Maybe the I know more than the generals one ?
DrafterX Offline
#117 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
More fake news... Mellow
Burner02 Offline
#118 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
tonygraz wrote:
Did you plagiarize that from a Trump speech ? Maybe the I know more than the generals one ?



On my worst day I have a much better handle on the situation than you ever dreamed of having.

And where did I ever say that I knew more than the generals. That is the on going position of the left in all arenas.

An one final thought, I'm guessing the only thing you have ever served is yourself.




delta1 Offline
#119 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,753
Burner02 wrote:
Guess those that served are to stupid to understand anything about world events in the past 30 plus years.


One of the hallmarks, and strengths, of our military is the obedience to the chain of command and the expectation that orders will be followed. The other is a hedge our founding fathers recognized was essential for a democracy: our military is obedient to a civilian Commander in Chief, the President. Most people I know who have served in uniform are good people and many of them are very intelligent.

If the Commander in Chief declares war and directs our military to achieve his lawful objectives, our military is bound to follow through without question. Generals who have openly questioned the President do not survive. So of course, those who served will accept the rationale to go to battle, whether or not it was flawed or intentionally misleading.

That sort of loyalty to the President explains why Mattis provided cover for Trump's claim that we were sending an "armada" to Korea. When it was discovered a few days later that the armada was heading in the opposite direction, Mattis announced that a planned exercise had been cut short and the ship was headed in that direction, as ordered...

Commanders in Chief can make the best generals and admirals look bad...
MACS Offline
#120 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,584
tonygraz wrote:
Mac's loves yellow cake and forgets that some cigars come in aluminum tubes.


I'm not really a fan of cake. I prefer ice cream.

I HAVE some cigars in aluminum tubes.
Burner02 Offline
#121 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
delta1 wrote:
One of the hallmarks, and strengths, of our military is the obedience to the chain of command and the expectation that orders will be followed. The other is a hedge our founding fathers recognized was essential for a democracy: our military is obedient to a civilian Commander in Chief, the President. Most people I know who have served in uniform are good people and many of them are very intelligent.

If the Commander in Chief declares war and directs our military to achieve his lawful objectives, our military is bound to follow through without question. Generals who have openly questioned the President do not survive. So of course, those who served will accept the rationale to go to battle, whether or not it was flawed or intentionally misleading.

That sort of loyalty to the President explains why Mattis provided cover for Trump's claim that we were sending an "armada" to Korea. When it was discovered a few days later that the armada was heading in the opposite direction, Mattis announced that a planned exercise had been cut short and the ship was headed in that direction, as ordered...

Commanders in Chief can make the best generals and admirals look bad...



a. I'm up to speed on how the chain of command works.

b. Last time I checked, President Trump has not started a war.

c. As long as N/K thought the battle group was headed it's way. Could a been a f**k up or tactical deception.

Al, hope you can make it for the remainder of this four year term. Only three months in and you are about to blow a gasket. Trump can stop all military spending and divert the funds to the largest cell phone give away ever and buy back all of the clunkers in the world. And guess what, the left will never be happy with Trump or the right.

Next time come to the party with an electable candidate.
gummy jones Offline
#122 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
TDS is real
frankj1 Offline
#123 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Burner02 wrote:


Next time come to the party with an electable candidate.


many here would be delighted to know that I have pizzed off a whole bunch of my friends by saying this exact thing...
no one to blame but ourselves, too smug, too know-it-all.

gummy jones Offline
#124 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
We'd all do well to leave the smug and snark at home once in a while.
frankj1 Offline
#125 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
yup.
and I figure the best first step is to acknowledge it.
Burner02 Offline
#126 Posted:
Joined: 12-21-2010
Posts: 12,861
frankj1 wrote:
yup.
and I figure the best first step is to acknowledge it.



In a perfect world I would not have voted for Trump.
frankj1 Offline
#127 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
Burner02 wrote:
In a perfect world I would not have voted for Trump.

I completely understand.
In a perfect world I wouldn't have voted for Johnson!

and to be clear, I was talking about me and libs acknowledging it.
tailgater Offline
#128 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
frankj1 wrote:
many here would be delighted to know that I have pizzed off a whole bunch of my friends by saying this exact thing...
no one to blame but ourselves, too smug, too know-it-all.



ahh what do you know?

frankj1 Offline
#129 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,211
tailgater wrote:
ahh what do you know?


sigh...such is the burden of one like a genius
DrafterX Offline
#130 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,506
You should become one of them super-geniuses.... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#131 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,173
There's a test for that- I think Frank got a 139 - making him like/almost a genius. Maybe the fish length tricky question on the mensa test got him.
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