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Last post 12 months ago by RayR. 26 replies replies.
Donald Trump found liable for sexually abuse - $5 million awarded
Brewha Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
A New York federal jury found former President Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing E. Jean Carroll in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s.

Trump was also found liable for defaming the writer last fall when he accused Carroll of making up that account.

The jury, which did not find that Trump had raped Carroll, ordered him to pay her $5 million in compensatory and punitive damages.

The frontrunner for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination faces multiple criminal investigations.

- CNBC


Will this be the thing that propels him the the RNC nomination?

Sounds like he won another Republican merit badge....
ZRX1200 Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,613
It was worth the $ to hear him say “Vagina” in that town hall when asks about the ugly old broad.
RayR Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Brewha thinks she's hot and he wants to pet her Vagina..that's her cat's name.

They really do pick really stupid people for juries, don't they? Where was the evidence of the alleged crime?
ZRX1200 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,613
The evidence was the case was in NY and they don’t like him.
Brewha Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Oh, say "witch hunt" - you know you want to...
RayR Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Brewha wrote:
Oh, say "witch hunt" - you know you want to...


Kangaroo Court is more like it. 🦘
Mr. Jones Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,425
He'd rather appeal it than pay her one Red cent...

She'll go to her grave before he pays her.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
TDS is so advanced in Brewha's mind that he never stopped to figure out how a court could rule that he never raped anyone, BUT was found guilty of defaming his accuser.

The more you scratch with that kook lady the more you're convinced there's no way in hell anyone did anything to her. She's bat$hit crazy. Just like the one's that want to believe her.
JGKAMIN Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,403
“Donald Trump found liable for sexually abuse - $5 million awarded”

He has been ordered to pay about $2 million in damages to Carroll for the civil battery claim and that he should pay her nearly $3 million in damages for defamation. Somebody should be found liable for posting this inaccurate and defaming post.
Brewha Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
JGKAMIN wrote:
“Donald Trump found liable for sexually abuse - $5 million awarded”

He has been ordered to pay about $2 million in damages to Carroll for the civil battery claim and that he should pay her nearly $3 million in damages for defamation. Somebody should be found liable for posting this inaccurate and defaming post.

For it to be defamation it would have to damage his public character. In Don's case it just makes him look more electable to his base.

And he may get a few more donations out of it.
Brewha Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
DrMaddVibe wrote:
TDS is so advanced in Brewha's mind that he never stopped to figure out how a court could rule that he never raped anyone, BUT was found guilty of defaming his accuser.

The more you scratch with that kook lady the more you're convinced there's no way in hell anyone did anything to her. She's bat$hit crazy. Just like the one's that want to believe her.



Big Don says - "thanks for the hand job Doc"
rfenst Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
RayR wrote:
They really do pick really stupid people for juries, don't they? Where was the evidence of the alleged crime?

The nine jurors, who deliberated for three hours before reaching their unanimous conclusion, found him guilty. Their collective group-IQ is probably like 175. They had rules and law constraints to follow and honor agreed upon by the parties and or ordered by the court from Standard Instructions and Law. Have you ever even served on a jury, been a foreperson, selected one or talked to jurors after a trial? And, before you complain the jury was unfair, just remember Trump had as many picks and strikes as the other side. Res Judicata. But, let's see what Trump comes up with on appeal before throwing out an otherwise constitutional jury's decision.
RayR Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
rfenst wrote:
The nine jurors, who deliberated for three hours before reaching their unanimous conclusion, found him guilty. Their collective group-IQ is probably like 175. They had rules and law constraints to follow and honor agreed upon by the parties and or ordered by the court from Standard Instructions and Law. Have you ever even served on a jury, been a foreperson, selected one or talked to jurors after a trial? And, before you complain the jury was unfair, just remember Trump had as many picks and strikes as the other side. Res Judicata. But, let's see what Trump comes up with on appeal before throwing out an otherwise constitutional jury's decision.


No, they would never take me on a jury, I'm too opinionated. Sad
I would judge the facts and the law regardless of what the Judge instructs, it's something ancient carried over from Merry Old England which I hear is frowned upon these days by many courts. Perhaps you've heard of it?

I'm no Trumpian, but what did he do? Say mean things about her? Call her ugly and a lair? Say she dresses funny? Say she wrote terrible books? Did his mean tweets influence her publisher in a way they wouldn't even look at her anymore causing her grave distress? Please!
It looks more like the weaponization of defamation for fun and profit by her legal eagles. Trump just happens to have deep pockets you know. If he was some poor schmuck they wouldn't even bother.



rfenst Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
RayR wrote:
No, they would never take me on a jury, I'm too opinionated. Sad
I would judge the facts and the law regardless of what the Judge instructs, it's something ancient carried over from Merry Old England which I hear is frowned upon these days by many courts. Perhaps you've heard of it?

Sad you won't perform your civic duty when called upon. If you ever have to be a party in a trial, you deserve a bunch of jurors who won't follow whatever law you are relying on- because they are too opinionated. Good luck.
RayR Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
rfenst wrote:
Sad you won't perform your civic duty when called upon. If you ever have to be a party in a trial, you deserve a bunch of jurors who won't follow whatever law you are relying on- because they are too opinionated. Good luck.


I told you they rejected me. The lawyers asked me questions and they didn't like the answers. I know they were looking for someone more malleable. I was also probably very grumpy after being tortured in a room in the big city with a hundred others waiting and waiting and waiting.

I shouldn't need to follow the law like a puppet if it's unjust or applied wrongly by the court. What's the point of being a juror if you don't have that undisputed power to be the final judge of the facts and the law?

Even that old lawyer John Adams in 1771 said, "It is not only [the juror's] right, but his duty...to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court"



lonnielonnie Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 05-14-2023
Posts: 2
RayR wrote:
Kangaroo Court is more like it. 🦘

Third world kangaroo Court. Some judges and courts are so bad in the US the Third World is getting ready to file copy write violations against us.
jester Word
Brewha Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
rfenst wrote:
Sad you won't perform your civic duty when called upon. If you ever have to be a party in a trial, you deserve a bunch of jurors who won't follow whatever law you are relying on- because they are too opinionated. Good luck.


I would argue that Ray not serving on a jury is a benefit to society.
Perhaps one of the only benefits he brings to the table...
RayR Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Brewha wrote:
I would argue that Ray not serving on a jury is a benefit to society.
Perhaps one of the only benefits he brings to the table...


I'm sure you are servile on a jury Brew, questioning nothing, accepting all without thinking, all that you are instructed to believe.


If the jury have no right to judge of the justice of a law of the government, they plainly can do nothing to protect the people against the oppressions of the government; for there are no oppressions which the government may not authorize by law. — Lysander Spooner “An Essay on the Trial by Jury” published in 1852
Brewha Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
RayR wrote:
I'm sure you are servile on a jury Brew, questioning nothing, accepting all without thinking, all that you are instructed to believe.
[/b]


You being sure of anything is not much of an argument....
RayR Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Brewha wrote:
You being sure of anything is not much of an argument....


I know you Brew, you would never be against oppression by the government, mandates, dictates, political persecution, or whatever they have to dish out. Right? Think
BuckyB93 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,194
One good way to get kicked off a jury is to ask them to explain what jury nullification is.

Jury nullification occurs when the jury in a criminal trial gives a not guilty verdict regardless of whether they believe a defendant has broken the law. The jury's reasons may include the belief that the law itself is unjust, that the prosecutor has misapplied the law in the defendant's case, that the punishment for breaking the law is too harsh, or general frustrations with the criminal justice system. Some juries have also refused to convict due to their own prejudices in favor of the defendant. Such verdicts are possible because a jury has an absolute right to return any verdict it chooses.

Nullification is not an official part of criminal procedure, but is the logical consequence of two rules governing the systems in which it exists:

1) Jurors cannot be punished for passing an incorrect verdict.
2) In many jurisdictions, a defendant who is acquitted cannot be tried a second time for the same offence.

A jury verdict that is contrary to the letter of the law pertains only to the particular case before it. However, if a pattern of acquittals develops in response to repeated attempts to prosecute a particular offence, this can have the de facto effect of invalidating the law. Such a pattern may indicate public opposition to an unwanted legislative enactment. It may also happen that a jury convicts a defendant even if no law was broken, although such a conviction may be overturned on appeal. Nullification can also occur in civil trials, but (unlike in criminal trials) if the jury renders a not liable verdict that is clearly at odds with the evidence, the judge can issue a judgment notwithstanding the verdict, or order a new trial.
rfenst Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
BuckyB93 wrote:
One good way to get kicked off a jury is to ask them to explain what jury nullification is.

Jury nullification occurs when the jury in a criminal trial gives a not guilty verdict regardless of whether they believe a defendant has broken the law. The jury's reasons may include the belief that the law itself is unjust, that the prosecutor has misapplied the law in the defendant's case, that the punishment for breaking the law is too harsh, or general frustrations with the criminal justice system. Some juries have also refused to convict due to their own prejudices in favor of the defendant. Such verdicts are possible because a jury has an absolute right to return any verdict it chooses.

Nullification is not an official part of criminal procedure, but is the logical consequence of two rules governing the systems in which it exists:

1) Jurors cannot be punished for passing an incorrect verdict.
2) In many jurisdictions, a defendant who is acquitted cannot be tried a second time for the same offence.

A jury verdict that is contrary to the letter of the law pertains only to the particular case before it. However, if a pattern of acquittals develops in response to repeated attempts to prosecute a particular offence, this can have the de facto effect of invalidating the law. Such a pattern may indicate public opposition to an unwanted legislative enactment. It may also happen that a jury convicts a defendant even if no law was broken, although such a conviction may be overturned on appeal. Nullification can also occur in civil trials, but (unlike in criminal trials) if the jury renders a not liable verdict that is clearly at odds with the evidence, the judge can issue a judgment notwithstanding the verdict, or order a new trial.

That is stupid advise which could poison the entire panel the potential jury is being chosen from, wasting the day for everyone else who honored their civic duty and showed. Ever seen anyone get held in contempt of court for pulling that crap? I have.

We have a 7th Amendment right to trial by jury. If we don't participate properly when we are called to serve, we are denying constitutional rights. The alternative is the government (historically the king) be judge and jury. In today's society, the state would the judge and jury.

Historically not good.
rfenst Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
BuckyB93 wrote:
One good way to get kicked off a jury is to ask them to explain what jury nullification is.

Jury nullification occurs when the jury in a criminal trial gives a not guilty verdict regardless of whether they believe a defendant has broken the law. The jury's reasons may include the belief that the law itself is unjust, that the prosecutor has misapplied the law in the defendant's case, that the punishment for breaking the law is too harsh, or general frustrations with the criminal justice system. Some juries have also refused to convict due to their own prejudices in favor of the defendant. Such verdicts are possible because a jury has an absolute right to return any verdict it chooses.

Nullification is not an official part of criminal procedure, but is the logical consequence of two rules governing the systems in which it exists:

1) Jurors cannot be punished for passing an incorrect verdict.
2) In many jurisdictions, a defendant who is acquitted cannot be tried a second time for the same offence.

A jury verdict that is contrary to the letter of the law pertains only to the particular case before it. However, if a pattern of acquittals develops in response to repeated attempts to prosecute a particular offence, this can have the de facto effect of invalidating the law. Such a pattern may indicate public opposition to an unwanted legislative enactment. It may also happen that a jury convicts a defendant even if no law was broken, although such a conviction may be overturned on appeal. Nullification can also occur in civil trials, but (unlike in criminal trials) if the jury renders a not liable verdict that is clearly at odds with the evidence, the judge can issue a judgment notwithstanding the verdict, or order a new trial.

That is stupid advise which could poison the entire panel the potential jury is being chosen from, wasting the day for everyone else who honored their civic duty and showed. Ever seen anyone get held in contempt of court for pulling that crap? I have.

We have a 7th Amendment right to trial by jury. If we don't participate properly when we are called to serve, we are denying constitutional rights. The alternative is the government (historically the king) be judge and jury. In today's society, the state would the judge and jury.

Historically not good.
RayR Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Historically GOOD!

"For more than six hundred years — that is, since Magna Carta, in 1215, — there has been no clearer principle of English or American constitutional law, than that, in criminal cases, it is not only the right and duty of juries to judge what are the facts, what is the law, and what was the moral intent of the accused; but that it also their right, and their primary and paramount duty, to judge of the justice of the law, and to hold all laws invalid, that are, in their opinion, unjust or oppressive, and all persons guiltless in violating, or resisting the execution of, such laws ." — An Essay on the Trial by Jury, published in 1852. Lysander Spooner.
BuckyB93 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,194
rfenst wrote:
That is stupid advise which could poison the entire panel the potential jury is being chosen from, wasting the day for everyone else who honored their civic duty and showed. Ever seen anyone get held in contempt of court for pulling that crap? I have.

We have a 7th Amendment right to trial by jury. If we don't participate properly when we are called to serve, we are denying constitutional rights. The alternative is the government (historically the king) be judge and jury. In today's society, the state would the judge and jury.

Historically not good.


How is it contempt of court by asking a question to the judge when he's giving his speech about jury duties and all that stuff to the jury pool in the jury pool room (not in the court room). How is it poisoning the jury to explain to them what jury nullification is about?

Shouldn't every potential juror know or be educated on all the possibilities that are available to them in their tool box? What is the court trying to hide by not explaining this possibility? Last I checked the government's responsibility (this includes the judicial branch) is to serve the people and not the other way around.

rfenst wrote:
The alternative is the government (historically the king) be judge and jury. In today's society, the state would the judge and jury.

Historically not good.


Isn't it the final power of the people to try to nullify a law that they (the people) deem unjust after the government put in place laws that the populous doesn't agree to? Let's face it, elected officials force laws into place that the populous doesn't agree to. Jury nullification is one way to nullify the law. One single case ain't gonna do it, but if there is a trend then that puts pressure on the government to rethink things and repeal the law and/or the degree of punishment for breaking that law.

Pot is listed as a schedule 1 drug at the federal level - in the same category as heroin. Pot, at the federal level, is ranked higher than a schedule 2 drug like coke, oxy, and meth. Seriously, the punishment for getting busted for pot can be more harsh than getting busted with coke or meth at the federal level. Is this law and the penalties for breaking this law right in your opinion? My opinion is that the law, at the federal level, is unjust and the penalties that one will pay if convicted based on the federal law is unjust

Here's some other examples from Wiki on how jury nullification has historically changed things (in my opinion) for the better.

Fugitive Slave Act

Juries across the North acquitted defendants who had clearly breached the Fugitive Slave Act in the 1850s. Part of the Compromise of 1850, it had been passed to mollify Southern slave owners, who were otherwise threatening to secede from the Union.

Secretary of State Daniel Webster was a key supporter of the law as expressed in his famous "Seventh of March" speech. He wanted high-profile convictions, but the jury nullifications ruined his presidential aspirations and his last-ditch efforts to find a compromise between North and South. Webster led the prosecution when defendants were accused of rescuing Shadrach Minkins in 1851 from Boston officials who intended to return Minkins to his owner. The juries convicted none of the men. Webster tried to enforce a law that was extremely unpopular in the North, and his Whig Party passed over him again when it chose a presidential nominee in 1852.

Later, during Prohibition, juries often nullified alcohol control laws. That resistance may have contributed to the adoption of the Twenty-first Amendment, which repealed Prohibition and the Eighteenth Amendment.
RayR Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Those are perfectly righteous examples Bucky.
The so-called Great Emancipator Abe Lincoln supported full enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act..because he was such a stickler for the laws on the books. LOL But those damn juries didn't think that law was so just.

As Defence Lawyer, James Ostrowski wrote:
“Why have juries largely failed in their intended function? There are some obvious and some less obvious reasons. First, juries have been stripped of their rightful, historical power to judge the law as well as the fact. For example, juries with the power to nullify unjust laws routinely acquitted those charged with violating the Fugitive Slave Law. A jury that must follow the law as explained by the judge, would have been forced to convict the liberators.” https://mises.org/library/whats-wrong-juries

Of course jury nullification goes both ways as you can see in Objection #1 in the following article, but that is no reason to throw jury nullification out with the bath water.

8 Jury Nullification Objections Rebutted
By Steve Silverman

May 23, 2014

Quote:
A recent Chicago Tribune editorial targets a new fully informed jury bill introduced by the New Hampshire House of Representatives. The bill would strengthen the current state law passed in 2012 that allows lawyers “to inform the jury of its right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relation to the facts in controversy.” The editorial is noteworthy, because it deploys the most common legal establishment objections to jury nullification.

Objection #1: Jury nullification was a tool of the Jim Crow South

It begins by reminding readers of one of the most horrific examples of racial injustice in the Jim Crow South.

In 1955, two white men went on trial in Mississippi for the murder of Emmett Till, a black 14-year-old from Chicago who supposedly had been too friendly to a white woman. In the Jim Crow South, there was never much chance of conviction, and they were acquitted by a jury that deliberated for barely an hour. The two men, free of the danger of prosecution, later acknowledged their guilt. That case and many like it are worth keeping in mind in any consideration of the place of jury nullification in the criminal justice system.

Let there be no mistake about it, racist juries routinely failed to deliver justice in the Jim Crow South. And jury injustice sometimes happens today when, for example, juries acquit police caught on video brutalizing defenseless citizens. So how can advocates reconcile the abuse of jury nullification with its noble history of delivering justice in the face of unjust laws?

As Paul Butler, a Georgetown University law professor and former federal prosecutor suggests, “nullification is like any other democratic power; some people may try to misuse it, but that does not mean it should be taken away from everyone else.”

Moreover, according to legal scholar Clay Conrad, the jury is a convenient scapegoat for institutional injustices. After the trial is over, the jury doesn’t exist. Jurors return home and go back to work. So when police, prosecutors, judges, and even lawmakers are incompetent or malicious, they can blame the jury to divert attention from their failures.

A recent Chicago Tribune editorial targets a new fully informed jury bill introduced by the New Hampshire House of Representatives. The bill would strengthen the current state law passed in 2012 that allows lawyers “to inform the jury of its right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relation to the facts in controversy.” The editorial is noteworthy, because it deploys the most common legal establishment objections to jury nullification.

Objection #1: Jury nullification was a tool of the Jim Crow South

It begins by reminding readers of one of the most horrific examples of racial injustice in the Jim Crow South.

In 1955, two white men went on trial in Mississippi for the murder of Emmett Till, a black 14-year-old from Chicago who supposedly had been too friendly to a white woman. In the Jim Crow South, there was never much chance of conviction, and they were acquitted by a jury that deliberated for barely an hour. The two men, free of the danger of prosecution, later acknowledged their guilt. That case and many like it are worth keeping in mind in any consideration of the place of jury nullification in the criminal justice system.

Let there be no mistake about it, racist juries routinely failed to deliver justice in the Jim Crow South. And jury injustice sometimes happens today when, for example, juries acquit police caught on video brutalizing defenseless citizens. So how can advocates reconcile the abuse of jury nullification with its noble history of delivering justice in the face of unjust laws?

As Paul Butler, a Georgetown University law professor and former federal prosecutor suggests, “nullification is like any other democratic power; some people may try to misuse it, but that does not mean it should be taken away from everyone else.”

Moreover, according to legal scholar Clay Conrad, the jury is a convenient scapegoat for institutional injustices. After the trial is over, the jury doesn’t exist. Jurors return home and go back to work. So when police, prosecutors, judges, and even lawmakers are incompetent or malicious, they can blame the jury to divert attention from their failures.

Objection #2: Jury nullification undermines rule of law

Under existing New Hampshire law, lawyers are allowed to tell jurors about jury nullification as part of their defense strategy. Unfortunately, some judges are undercutting the law by issuing contradictory jury instructions. For example, during the trial of Rich Paul, a Keene man convicted last year for selling marijuana, Judge John C. Kissinger told the jury that they “must follow the law as I explain it.” Paul spent one year in jail.

It’s notable that the Tribune overlooks Judge Kissinger’s subversion of the rule of law while insisting that the new bill would “undermine rule of law.” Nevertheless, those who claim that jury nullification is a violation of rule of law are wrong. “Jury nullification is a part of our law,”according to Cato Institute legal scholar Tim Lynch. “It’s part of the checks and balances in our constitutional system. Just as pardon power is used by governors and the president, juries have the power to bring back acquittals.”

More...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/05/steve-silverman/say-yes-to-jury-nullification/
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