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National Debt Thoughts
rfenst Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
Discuss...
RayR Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
We are heading for THE GREAT DEFAULT. More people are waking up to the fact that the emperor has no clothes. There is no political will by either party to reverse course from the abyss in any meaningful way. Mainly because that thing collectively called the government can't suffer the pain, the self-flagellation it would have to inflict on itself to atone for its sins.

Da White House is fearmongering as to what will happen if the gubment isn't able to spend ad infinitum. In Life After Default, they tell you children will starve and die, grandma will get pushed off the cliff, we will all be thrown out in the street from our houses and apartments, we will all suffer and die from pandemics and stuff, and the great socialist experiments will collapse.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/written-materials/2021/10/06/life-after-default/

DrafterX Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,552
I sure hope Biden learns his lesson... Mellow
DrMaddVibe Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
DrafterX wrote:
I sure hope Biden learns his lesson... Mellow


He lacks brain matter to talk, I'm positive learning isn't happening with Pedo Joe.
DrafterX Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,552
Just remembering when Pelosi and Chuck were laughing at Trump for signing their bloated budget. Then blamed him for increasing the debt. Mellow
rfenst Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
DrafterX wrote:
Just remembering when Pelosi and Chuck were laughing at Trump for signing their bloated budget. Then blamed him for increasing the debt. Mellow

Remembe the scene inn the oval office with Pelosi, Shumer and Trump over budget/increasing the debt limit?

Trump said he didn't care- if they wouldn't give him what he wanted- and said he would shut the country down. Shumer made a funny comment like please say that again into the camera- or someithing like that- daring Trump to do that.

Final agreement by thosel innvolved in any negotiations requires compormise and movement far off from the initial positions. It will happen here to, but the brinksmanship by both sides is pathetic.
HockeyDad Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
Government passes a law to create a debt ceiling. Government then passes laws that borrow more money and will be blocked by the debt ceiling law which they fully knew at the time. Government then declares a crisis. Government them comes together and passes a law to raise the debt ceiling. Government is hailed as heroes for solving the crisis and receives a ticker tape parade.

Secured by the full faith and credit of the United States.

deadeyedick Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,097
"We pay our debts."

Screw the chillin and the chillin's chillin. Speak to the hand
HockeyDad Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
deadeyedick wrote:
"We pay our debts."

Screw the chillin and the chillin's chillin. Speak to the hand



We will make them wish they were aborted. And what’s with this heat? They’re gonna love climate change.
RayR Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
The hypocrisy of these political elitists cannot be missed by those who are paying attention. They are all responsible for the bloated budget and the insurmountable bloated national debt crisis. Compromise my azz, they are taking the former republic on the road to hell.

They both really want to raise the debt ceiling again and again because they fear the political implications, like being called bad names for not doing so, but they will be called bad names by the other side regardless even, if not especially if they take a principled constitutional stance on government spending.

I always thought that phrase that the national debt is "Secured by the full faith and credit of the United States" was fodder for idjuts. What it really means is that the general government's debts are backed ONLY by acts of legalized violence, to pillage and plunder the economy as they so choose.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,552
I've got 2 pitchforks now... Mellow
rfenst Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
Why I Changed My Mind on the Debt Limit


By Laurence H. Tribe

At this moment, at the White House as well as the Departments of Treasury and Justice, officials are debating a legal theory that previous presidents and any number of legal experts — including me — ruled out in 2011, when the Obama administration confronted a default.

The theory builds on Section 4 of the 14th Amendment to argue that Congress, without realizing it, set itself on a path that would violate the Constitution when, in 1917, it capped the size of the federal debt. Over the years, Congress has raised the debt ceiling scores of times, most recently two years ago, when it set the cap at $31.4 trillion. We hit that amount on Jan. 19 and are being told that the “extraordinary measures” Treasury has available to get around it are about to run out. When that happens, all hell will break loose.
...

Section 4 of the 14th Amendment says the “validity” of the public debt “shall not be questioned” — ever. Proponents of the unconstitutionality argument say that when Congress enacted the debt limit, effectively forcing the United States to stop borrowing to honor its debts when that limit was reached, it built a violation of that constitutional command into our fiscal structure, and that as a result, that limit and all that followed are invalid.

I’ve never agreed with that argument. It raises thorny questions about the appropriate way to interpret the text: Does Section 4, read properly, prohibit anything beyond putting the federal government into default? If so, which actions does it forbid? And, most important, could this interpretation open the door for dangerous presidential overreach, if Section 4 empowers the president single-handedly to declare laws he dislikes unconstitutional?
...

The question isn’t whether the president can in effect become a one-person Supreme Court, striking down laws passed by Congress.
...

And there is only one person with the power to give Congress that answer: the president of the United States. As a practical matter, what that means is this: Mr. Biden must tell Congress in no uncertain terms — and as soon as possible, before it’s too late to avert a financial crisis — that the United States will pay all its bills as they come due, even if the Treasury Department must borrow more than Congress has said it can.

By taking that position, the president would not be usurping Congress’s lawmaking power or its power of the purse. Nor would he be usurping the Supreme Court’s power to “say what the law is,” as Chief Justice John Marshall once put it. Mr. Biden would simply be doing his duty to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed” even if doing so leaves one law — the borrowing limit first enacted in 1917 — temporarily on the cutting room floor.
...

For a president to pick the lesser of two evils when no other option exists is the essence of constitutional leadership, not the action of a tyrant. And there is no doubt that ignoring the debt ceiling until Congress either raises or abolishes it is a lesser evil than leaving those with lawful claims against the Treasury out in the cold.
...

In any event, Section 4 prohibits the president from permanently stiffing our creditors — even those required to wait their turn after the Treasury runs dry. So even if Speaker Kevin McCarthy and those pulling his strings succeed in making some of those creditors wait, it wouldn’t eliminate our debts; it would merely replace them with i.o.u.s. And that’s just debt in another form.

All Congress would have done is create economic catastrophe on top of constitutional crisis — and without securing compliance with the debt ceiling that Republican claim to want. The only way out of this forest is through the trees.





Mr. Tribe has advised three Democratic presidents on constitutional issues involving the separation of powers and the 14th Amendment.
RayR Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Our LEFTY weasely statist law professor sure has a way of beating around the bushes around the forest of trees in that NYT Op-Ed.
Well of course he "has advised three Democratic presidents on constitutional issues involving the separation of powers and the 14th Amendment."
What exactly has he changed his mind on?

I love the picture of the evil lizard people they chose before the scaremongering sign. JUST PERFECT!

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/opinion/debt-limit.html
Mr. Jones Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 06-12-2005
Posts: 19,425
Here's "THE MR.JONES SOLUTION TO THE GREAT DEFAULT & DEBT CEILING DEBACLE"...

AND IT IS GOOD....

*CUT ALL FORIEGN AID BY 30-40% ACROSS THE BOARD...
ONE exception is Isreal...

*NATIONALIZE AND SEIZE A.N.Y. AND ALL BUSINESS BLDGS, LAND HOLDINGS AND CASH/ SAFE DEPOSIT BOXES OF ANY official CHINESE citizen HOLDINGS IN THE U.S...

And finally...
* tell the CCP TO LICK UNCLE SAMS STARFISH AND TELL THOSE LANTERN FLY, LOCUST BORE, FAKE LADY BUG SPECIES, WALKING FISH DECIMATING VA AND MARYLAND, LEAD IN TOY IMPORTS AND TOTAL DISREGARD TO OUR ENVIRONMENT AND THAT WE ARE S.T.I.F.F.I.N.G. THOSE CHI-CHOM BASTIDS OUT OR OUR ENTIRE TREASURY BOND "THINGYS" THEY BOUGHT LIKE RABID DOGS FOR YRS & YRS & YRS...AND FREEZE EVERY CHINESE BANK ACCT AND SEIZE ALL HOLDINGS IN NORTH AMERICA...

That'll " learn emmmmm"...

Bwuuuuhahahahaha!!!

deadeyedick Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 03-13-2003
Posts: 17,097
Thats a switch. Jonesy calling for the government to take private monies. Think
RayR Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Yes, I think that would start a bad precedent, before you know it, the government will start thinking it has the right to arbitrarily confiscate private property from Americans too.
OH WAIT! They already do that, they've got the IRS and Civil Asset Forfeiture laws and other stuff.
HockeyDad Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
I expect President Biden will need to invoke the 31st amendment to raise the debt ceiling.
RayR Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
HockeyDad wrote:
I expect President Biden will need to invoke the 31st amendment to raise the debt ceiling.


That's what dicktator would do.
rfenst Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
National default, on any Treasury Bond holder or the like, would kill international investment and supporting of our economy.

Taking Chinese property and financial instruments would result in them never buying property or Treasury Bonds and the like again.

The rest of the world would chit-bricks too. Rates would have to increase dramatically to attract foriegn money to what would be considered a very risky investment.

No bueno at all in any way.
HockeyDad Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
I agree with rfenst. The USA cannot exist without an ever increasing national debt.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Be Serious, Default Wouldn't Be 'Catastrophic,' Nor Will It Happen



No one lends or borrows dollars. They lend or borrow what dollars can be exchanged for.

Please keep this in mind amid all the hyper-ventilating over potential default. Janet Yellen, the walking, talking-est contrarian indicator on earth claims default would be "catastropic," while the always and everywhere expert reverent Catherine Rampell tells readers "If you're not afraid yet [about default], you should be." Wise minds will be calm. This is such a non-story.

For one, As evidenced by the floating, occasionally very weak dollar over the decades, the U.S. has defaulted numerous times. And that’s not a partisan point. Left-of-center economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff are clear in their book This Time Is Different that when FDR revalued the dollar from 1/20th of a gold ounce to 1/35th, the U.S. defaulted.

All of which brings us to the present. In contemplating the present, it’s useful to think about another book written by left-of-center reporters Peter Baker and Susan Glasser, The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker III. Baker and Glasser’s book was very fair, and among other things the authors noted about President Reagan was that much as he wanted a smaller, much more limited government, the act of achieving “it proved harder than Reagan’s team had imagined – every program they wanted to cut had a constituency, it seemed, often including fellow Republicans.” Translated, while some politicians want limited government, they all have at least one program that’s near and dear to them. Since they all do, government will always and everywhere grow as votes are traded back and forth so that everyone gets what they want.

Please keep what Reagan experienced top of mind with the latest battle over the debt ceiling very much in mind. What Reagan saw ably explains why no one need fear Treasury not paying its bills.

For now, though, consider what would happen if the debt-ceiling isn’t raised only for Treasury to cease paying its bills. Will this cause Treasuries to collapse and a global financial meltdown? Not a chance. To see why, consider what’s happened when fiscal brinksmanship has led to mere government shutdowns over the years. There’s been no panic, after which everyone eventually got paid. Even “non-essential” federal workers. Once back at work, they received back pay for time off of the job. Nice work if you can get it, which apparently you can if the gargantuan size of government is any kind of indicator.

Which explains why Treasuries won’t collapse if we reach “default.” In reality, there will be a rather liquid market for future claims on the U.S. Treasury. Same will be true if the warring between the White House and Congress results in a drawn out battle. Figure that Treasury yields actually fell (meaning their value rose) in the months after Moody’s downgrade of Treasury debt in 2011.

Back to what could happen in the form of a so-called “financial crisis” allegedly born of default, it won’t happen simply because every federal program has a constituency. It’s as basic as that. While it’s once again true that some in Congress might prefer a smaller government than others, everyone’s got a pet as it were. Since everyone does, it’s no reach to say that eventually the White House and Congress will reach agreement to raise the debt ceiling. Once the agreement is in place, bills will be paid and spending will resume.

The simple truth is that every senator and every congressman wants a cushy retirement. The latter is a function of a massive government the size of which lucratively employs politicians once they’re no longer politicians, and that employs various family members and friends while they are.

In short, any default will be very short. Politicians ultimately love to spend the money of others precisely because they love the money that finds them and those close to them for spending the money of others.

https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/be-serious-default-wouldnt-be-catastrophic-nor-will-it-happen
RayR Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
The U.S. government has defaulted on its debts before. The next one will likely be the BIG HUMOUNGOUS ONE.
When? Who can say, but a ruling class intent on relentless spending and debt creation has taken down whole civilizations before. It's hubris and arrogance for someone to say it will never happen.

The US has never defaulted on its debt — except the four times it did

BY ALEX J. POLLOCK, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR - 10/07/21 12:01 PM ET

Quote:
Every time the U.S. government’s debt gets close to the debt ceiling, and people start worrying about a possible default, the Treasury Department, under either party, says the same thing: “The U.S. government has never defaulted on its debt!” Every time, this claim is false.

Now Treasury Secretary Yellen has joined the unfailing chorus, writing that “The U.S. has always paid its bills on time” and “The U.S. has never defaulted. Not once,” and telling the Senate Banking Committee that if Congress does not raise the debt ceiling, “America would default for the first time in history.”

This is all simply wrong. If the United States government did default now, it would be the fifth time, not the first. There have been four explicit defaults on its debt before. These were:

1.) The default on the U.S. government’s demand notes in early 1862, caused by the Treasury’s financial difficulties trying to pay for the Civil War. In response, the U. S. government took to printing pure paper money, or “greenbacks,” which during the war fell to significant discounts against gold, depending particularly on the military fortunes of the Union armies.

2.) The overt default by the U.S. government on its gold bonds in 1933. The United States had in clear and entirely unambiguous terms promised the bondholders to redeem these bonds in gold coin. Then it refused to do so, offering depreciated paper currency instead. The case went ultimately to the Supreme Court, which on a 5-4 vote, upheld the sovereign power of the government to default if it chose to. “As much as I deplore this refusal to fulfill the solemn promise of bonds of the United States,” wrote Justice Harlan Stone, a member of the majority, “the government, through exercise of its sovereign power…has rendered itself immune from liability,” demonstrating the classic risk of lending to a sovereign. In “American Default,” his highly interesting political history of this event, Sebastian Edwards concludes that it was an “excusable default,” but clearly a default.

3.) Then the U.S. government defaulted in 1968 by refusing to honor its explicit promise to redeem its silver certificate paper dollars for silver dollars. The silver certificates stated and still state on their face in language no one could misunderstand, “This certifies that there has been deposited in the Treasury of the United States of America one silver dollar, payable to the bearer on demand.” It would be hard to have a clearer promise than that. But when an embarrassingly large number of bearers of these certificates demanded the promised silver dollars, the U.S. government simply decided not to pay. For those who believed the certification which was and is printed on the face of the silver certificates: Tough luck.

4.) The fourth default was the 1971 breaking of the U.S. government’s commitment to redeem dollars held by foreign governments for gold under the Bretton Woods Agreement. Since that commitment was the lynchpin of the entire Bretton Woods system, reneging on it was the end of the system. President Nixon announced this act as temporary: “I have directed [Treasury] Secretary Connally to suspend temporarily the convertibility of the dollar into gold.” The suspension of course became permanent, allowing the unlimited printing of dollars by the Federal Reserve today. Connally notoriously told his upset international counterparts, “The dollar is our currency but it’s your problem.”

To paraphrase Daniel Patrick Moynihan, you are entitled to your own opinion about the debt ceiling, but not to your own facts about the history of U.S. government defaults.

Alex J. Pollock is the author of “Finance and Philosophy — Why We’re Always Surprised,” and served as the principal deputy director of the Office of Financial Research, U. S. Treasury.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/575722-the-us-has-never-defaulted-on-its-debt-except-the-four-times-it-did/

RayR Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
That Yellen sure is a dummy!

Yellen Is Wrong: The Debt Ceiling Presents No Constitutional Crisis

by Jacob G. Hornberger
May 10, 2023

Quote:
A few days ago, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen stated that adhering to the debt ceiling would produce a “constitutional crisis.” Her statement, however, reflects her lack of understanding of both fiscal and constitutional principles.

The debt ceiling is a law that has been duly enacted by Congress. No one, including Yellen, has ever suggested that the debt-ceiling law violates the Constitution.

Therefore, for Yellen to say that complying with a duly enacted constitutional law would provoke a “constitutional crisis,” well, that’s just plain silly.

What she is suggesting is that if the debt ceiling is adhered to, this would cause a default by government in the payment of its debt. She says that such a default would constitute a violation of the 14th Amendment which states, “The validity of the public debt of the United States … shall not be questioned.”

What she clearly does not get is that complying with the debt ceiling does not question the payment of the government’s existing debt. It simply prohibits the government from incurring new debt. In other words, it requires U.S. officials to balance tax revenues with expenditures.

More...

https://www.fff.org/2023/05/10/yellen-is-wrong-the-debt-ceiling-presents-no-constitutional-crisis/
HockeyDad Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
The constitutional crisis is transitory.
RayR Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
HockeyDad wrote:
The constitutional crisis is transitory.


But government spending and the national debt are escalatory.


The Smoke and Mirrors of the Debt Ceiling Crisis

by Richard M. Ebeling
May 8, 2023

Quote:
The Washington political establishment, the social-media pundits, and the editorial pages of many newspapers have all been warning of a fiscal Armageddon if the national debt limit is not raised in the very near future. The danger, it is said, is that the U.S. government might default on its interest payments, sending the domestic economy and the international financial markets into a dangerous tailspin.

The federal government reached the current statutory limit on the national debt of $31.4 trillion earlier in 2023. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen informed the public and the politicians in Congress at that time that the same financial gimmickry that has been used in the past would be applied again. Funds would be shifted around and juggled on the federal government’s ledger books to forestall running out of money to spend on mandatory (“entitlement”) programs as well as all discretionary expenditures, along with interest payments on the federal debt, hopefully, until the late summer, or maybe even into September. But in a new, revised estimate, Yellen said more recently that the “hard” ceiling on any further spending could be reached by as early as June 1, 2023.

More...

https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-the-debt-ceiling-crisis/
rfenst Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
Debt-Ceiling Talks Continue as Report Warns of Possible June Default

Spending caps, energy-project approvals seen as promising areas in negotiations


WSJ

...

"U.S. sovereign debt underpins much of the global financial system. A failure by the U.S. to pay its bills on time could cause chaos in financial markets, lead to higher interest rates and raise borrowing costs on U.S. debt. Missed payments on other U.S. obligations, including on Social Security benefits, could also cause economic pain across the country.

Missed payments could happen even before the government runs out of money, according to the CBO, because low cash balances would introduce unusual cash-management risks for the Treasury.

If payments are missed, according to the CBO, there could be distress in credit markets and rapid increases in the government’s borrowing costs.

For now, the Treasury Department is relying on its cash balance, incoming tax revenue and the accounting maneuvers, which it calls extraordinary measures, to cover federal spending."
DrMaddVibe Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Um...Pedo Joe rescheduled because he had to go to his Delaware beach house. That was more important.
RayR Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Um...Pedo Joe rescheduled because he had to go to his Delaware beach house. That was more important.


A president has to have his priorities. The White House says that no matter where Joe is, he is always on the job saving the soul of Amerika. fog
rfenst Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Um...Pedo Joe rescheduled because he had to go to his Delaware beach house. That was more important.

Maybe, more was accompliched at that meeting between the five of them than we know about and the interns and subbordinats of each of them are working on things. I hope. Just maybe.

Notwithstanding this, we should not default.
BuckyB93 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,194
The cesspool that we call our government needs an enema. Give them all pink slips with no severance packages and Ctrl Alt Del for a reboot on the prostitutes running our country.
rfenst Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
Opposing opinion/view on debt limit and constitutitional analysis vs. #12 above.


The Case for Violating the Debt Limit Is Dangerous Nonsense


NYT Opinion

President Biden is playing a dangerous game. When the federal government’s deficit spending is about to exceed the amount Congress has authorized it to borrow and the Treasury has run out of what are known as extraordinary measures to stave off disaster, Congress and the president must negotiate a compromise resolution, or the nation faces the prospect of default.

The House of Representatives has already passed a bill that would raise the nation’s debt limit by $1.5 trillion, coupled with proposed spending cuts, and its Republican leaders have signaled a willingness to negotiate. Mr. Biden instead has demanded that Congress raise the debt ceiling without conditions.

But the House Republicans’ insistence on negotiations and compromise is not hostage taking. It is the ordinary stuff of politics. The two sides can posture all they want, but in the end, Congress and the president have to reach an agreement. That is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. The Constitution does not permit a unilateral solution on either side.

Begin with constitutional basics. Article I, Section 8 lists the powers of Congress. The first clause of Section 8 provides that Congress may “lay and collect taxes.” The second clause provides that Congress has the power “to borrow money on the credit of the United States.” These clauses are absolute. The executive branch cannot impose taxes or borrow funds on its own authority. Together with the power over spending, these powers are known as the power of the purse, which belongs entirely to the legislative branch.

These provisions have pride of place among Congress’s powers for a reason. Before the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and the English Civil War, the Stuart monarchs asserted the power to tax and to borrow without parliamentary approval, which effectively meant the power to rule without Parliament. The result was not just autocratic rule at home but also periodic defaults on the royal debt, astronomical interest rates for government borrowing and ultimately civil war. Our framers did not wish to recreate the Stuart monarchy, and the first two clauses of Section 8 reflect that aversion. The power of the purse may be the most fundamental element in our system of checks and balances.

The debt limit is nothing more than an authorization from Congress to borrow a certain amount, up to a certain limit. The debt ceiling is not a restriction on what would otherwise be the president’s ability to borrow; it is an authorization for the executive branch to borrow up to that ceiling. Above that, the president may not go.

Nonetheless, Mr. Biden’s advisers reportedly are contemplating violating the congressional debt limit based on a far-fetched interpretation of Section 4 of the 14th Amendment propounded by some academics. Previous administrations have flirted with this idea, but all have rejected it. Mr. Biden should do the same. It would twist the words of the 14th Amendment, ignore its history and send the markets into turmoil.

Section 4 of the 14th Amendment, enacted in the wake of the Civil War, says: “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law … shall not be questioned.” The immediate purpose was to prevent future Congresses (if controlled by pro-Confederate Democrats) from repudiating pension obligations and other debts incurred to win the Civil War. No doubt it applies beyond those narrow circumstances. But by its terms it does not authorize the president to borrow more money in violation of Article I, Section 8, Clause 2. Nor does it authorize the president to impose taxes in violation of Article I, Section 8, Clause 1. By its terms, it does not augment the president’s powers one iota.

Nor does Section 4 have anything to do with payment of the national debt. It does not make it unconstitutional for the United States to run out of money. Nice idea, but impossible. Section 4 prevents the only institution of government that could deny the validity of the debt — namely, Congress — from doing so. For the United States to fail to pay interest or principal on its debt would be financially catastrophic, but it would not affect the validity of the debt. When borrowers fail to make payments on lawfully incurred debt, this does not question the validity of those debts; their debts are just as valid as before. The borrowers are just in default.

Moreover, even if the president were to issue new bonds without congressional authorization, the text of Section 4 makes plain that these bonds would not be constitutionally binding. Only public debt “authorized by law” — meaning by statute — has that status. Were Mr. Biden to issue bonds on his unilateral authority, the bond market would know that those bonds were not backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. Sensible investors would not purchase such bonds or would demand such a high risk premium as to make them uneconomical.

Some people assume that the president’s power to issue new debt would be resolved legally by the Supreme Court, but it would be resolved, for practical purposes, by the bond markets before the courts could even act. And the resolution would not be a happy one.

Mr. Biden has only one real choice if he wishes to avoid default: He has to negotiate with Congress, the branch of the government with authority over borrowing and spending. If that means agreeing to spending reductions, that is hardly a disaster. That is what previous presidents have done; indeed, as vice president, he negotiated just such a deal between President Barack Obama and Congress. The idea that the 14th Amendment gives the president unilateral power to borrow is dangerous nonsense.





Michael W. McConnell is a professor and the director of the Constitutional Law Center at Stanford Law School and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. He was a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit from 2002 to 2009.
rfenst Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
7 doomsday scenarios if the U.S. crashes through the debt ceiling

Economists warn of worst-case outcomes should Congress fail to raise the federal borrowing limit by the “X-date” deadline


WAPO Editorial Board Opinio

1. crash
2. A sudden recession
3. Federal workers in limbo
4. Social Security and Medicare miss payments
5. U.S. borrowing costs soar
6. Economic problems spread worldwide
7. The dollar drops, along with U.S. prestige


Federal workers furloughed. Social Security checks for seniors on hold. Soaring mortgage rates. A global financial system sent reeling.

Leaders from Congress and the White House are trying to forge an agreement to lift the federal debt ceiling, with only a few weeks before the Treasury Department may no longer be able to avert an unprecedented U.S. default. If they fail, and the government can’t meet its payment obligations, economists and financial experts predict chaos.

“It would be a lethal combination,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s. “You can see how this thing could really metastasize and take down the entire financial system, which would ultimately take out the economy.”

Think you can tame the national debt? Play our budget game.

Treasury Secretary Janet L. Yellen has said the agency may only be able to sustain operations until June 1 before running out of money if the government can’t borrow more. That specific deadline — known as the “X-date” — depends on tax revenue and spending, which can fluctuate dramatically from week to week.

What happens next is also hard to predict.

The cascading impacts of default would probably compound — a pause in federal payments would hurt the economy, which would hurt the stock market, which would in turn hurt the economy even more, and so on. The interactions between collapsing home values, rising interest rates and a destabilized global financial system are hard to calculate. Some estimates suggest that more than 8 million jobs could be wiped out. Mortgage rates might soar by more than 20 percent, according to some projections, and the economy would contract by as much as it did during the 2008 Great Recession.

But what economists stress above all else is the unpredictability — particularly if the breach lasts for weeks or months. Experts stress that the worst-case scenarios are unlikely if lawmakers only narrowly miss the deadline, perhaps by hours or even a few days, but that the risks rise dramatically should the standoff persist.

“We do not know: This has never happened,” said Claudia Sahm, a liberal economist who worked at the Federal Reserve. “What makes me so concerned is I can’t sketch out, and I don’t think anyone can, is: What happens at X+1?”

Here are some outcomes that experts worry about most.

Stocks crash
Wall Street would probably be the first trouble spot.

So far, financial markets haven’t swung much over the debt ceiling standoff. The price to hedge against a U.S. government default has risen, as has the cost of government bonds due around the debt ceiling deadline — reflecting doubt about repayment. But those tremors are not noticeable for most households.

That is expected to change the closer the government gets to a default. The shock of a missed payment would ripple across the financial system — stocks, bonds, mutual funds, derivatives — before spilling out into the broader economy, experts say.

Stocks would likely plummet on the expectation of a wider economic downturn, as interest rates rise and investors pull funds out of the market to preserve their access to short-term cash. A banking sector already wary of making new loans could tighten up further.

The last time the U.S. government neared default, stocks took a bruising. In 2011, the X-date was less than a week away during a standoff between President Barack Obama and Republicans in Congress. Major indexes fell by roughly 20 percent.

Moody’s Analytics has estimated that stock prices could fall by roughly one-fifth, wiping out $10 trillion in household wealth and devastating the retirement accounts of millions of Americans. The White House has estimated that the decline could be closer to 45 percent.

The $46 trillion bond market would also tremble, as the values of existing Treasury bonds collapse due to higher yields on new ones. And businesses would likely halt expansion — driving stocks down even more.

A sudden recession
If the standoff persists, the impact would quickly spread from financial markets to the broader economy.

A drop in household wealth across the country, caused by a sell-off on Wall Street, would reduce consumer spending, which would hurt businesses, too.

When is the debt limit deadline? Early June, CBO says. Unless it’s not.

And a spike in interest rates would make it harder to get a loan or start a small business. That could also crash the already cooling housing market. A recent report from Zillow projected that a default would drive mortgage rates above 8 percent and push housing sales down by a startling 23 percent. The construction industry and other sectors would feel the pain, too.

The most drastic impact might be a pause in regular federal payments to tens of millions of American families, including seniors on Medicare and Social Security and people relying on food stamps. The federal government is projected to spend roughly $6 trillion this year, which translates into roughly $16 billion per day. Not all of that goes directly to households, of course, but it’s a huge amount of money to vanish from the economy overnight.

A 2013 report by the Treasury Department found the 2011 debt ceiling standoff caused a $2.4 trillion decline in total household wealth. The broader economy, the White House Council of Economic Advisers said, could contract by as much as 6 percent, similar to the 2008 Great Recession.

Federal workers in limbo
The U.S. government has a process for shutting down when Congress fails to approve a new budget: Agencies whose spending hasn’t been approved prepare workers for furloughs, instructing certain “essential” staff that they will keep working without pay. There have been three shutdowns that lasted at least a full day over the past decade. Workers are all typically repaid afterward.

But hitting the debt ceiling might look nothing like that, experts say. The White House Office of Management and Budget has not yet disseminated instructions for a debt-related shutdown, which some budget analysts say would be difficult because there is no way of knowing which payments the government won’t be able to make. That could change as the deadline nears, but as of now, there is no playbook for keeping even essential federal employees on the job.

Invoking the 14th Amendment to dodge the debt limit is risky, Biden aides fear

The uncertainty could affect U.S. military personnel as well as food safety inspectors, air traffic controllers and workers in other vital jobs. The federal government is the largest employer in the country, with roughly 4.2 million full-time employees, according to the Congressional Research Service. The National Association of Government Employees, which represents nearly 75,000 federal workers, sued to challenge the constitutionality of the debt limit earlier this month, citing its potential impact on federal workers.

Social Security and Medicare miss payments
More than 60 million people receive monthly Social Security payments, mostly seniors. A similar number depend on Medicare for their health insurance.

Some Republicans have claimed that the federal government can continue making these payments even without borrowing by redirecting incoming tax revenue. But budget experts are skeptical the Treasury Department will have the ability to send seniors these benefits on time, particularly if the breach lasts for weeks or months.

If the government can still make some payments with incoming tax revenue, the administration might have to pick between sending checks to seniors and making interest payments on the debt. But forgoing those interest payments to keep Social Security and Medicare functioning could exacerbate what would likely be an already severe financial crisis in that doomsday scenario.

U.S. borrowing costs soar
The federal government is able to borrow money relatively cheaply because it’s seen as a very safe credit risk — no one, in normal circumstances, expects that it might miss any payments.

The safety of U.S. government bonds has made them an essential building block in the world financial system. Serving as reserves for everything from foreign nations’ central banks to money market funds, U.S. Treasurys are widely recognized as one of the most secure and liquid investments available, backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. Any financial instrument whose value is based on Treasury bonds could be thrown out of whack after a debt ceiling breach, with a sharp drop in prices leading to volatility and uncertainty worldwide.

Economists say the discount the United States has enjoyed for decades on borrowing could end. One estimate by the Brookings Institution, a D.C.-based think tank, found that breaching the debt limit could increase federal borrowing costs by $750 billion over the next decade.

Economic problems spread worldwide
Many nations safeguard their finances by buying large amounts of U.S. government debt, widely regarded as one of the safest assets in the world. But breaching the debt ceiling could drive the value of those bonds down, hurting reserves for many nations.

Economists fear that would dramatically increase the ranks of the countries drowning in debt, like Sri Lanka and Pakistan, with a potential rise in protests and global geopolitical instability. The Federal Reserve’s push to raise interest rates over the past year to curb inflation has already eroded the value of U.S. bond holdings for many nations. And according to the Council on Foreign Relations, more than half of the world’s foreign currency reserves are held in U.S. dollars — roughly three times as much as any other currency.

The dollar drops, along with U.S. prestige
A default could hurt U.S. standing on the world stage, experts say, by revealing the depth of the country’s internal political dysfunction.

Already, financial experts have been following some early signs that the world economy is beginning to shed its dependence on the dollar, with countries such as Brazil and Malaysia calling for nations to trade more frequently in other currencies. Roughly 60 percent of foreign currency exchanges still happen in dollars, but a default on U.S. debt — which could send the value of the greenback reeling — could change that.

As Yellen, in Japan on Thursday, said to reporters about a default: “It would also risk undermining U.S. global economic leadership and raise questions about our ability to defend our national security interests.”

Something more fundamental may also be at stake. Governments’ credibility is tied in part to their ability to respond to a crisis. A debt ceiling breach would cast doubt on the federal government’s capacity not only to respond to an emergency, but also to fulfill one of its most elementary functions — paying the bills. If the United States can’t do that, citizens and leaders in other countries might wonder, what else can’t it manage anymore?

“It would erode global confidence in our political system, because part of our standing in the world is based on international confidence that our political system is basically functional,” said Daniel Bergstresser, associate professor of finance at Brandeis University’s International Business School. “And this would show it isn’t.”
HockeyDad Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
There will also be a new Covid variant if we default.
Brewha Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Or it could make America great again….
DrMaddVibe Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
HockeyDad wrote:
There will also be a new Covid variant if we default.


Cuz.."The DATA"!
JGKAMIN Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,403
HockeyDad wrote:
There will also be a new Covid variant if we default.

There certainly will be just as Dr. Fauci has promised…Herfing

https://americanfaith.com/fauci-says-there-will-absolutely-be-an-outbreak-of-another-pandemic-it-may-be-next-year/
RayR Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
JGKAMIN wrote:
There certainly will be just as Dr. Fauci has promised…Herfing

https://americanfaith.com/fauci-says-there-will-absolutely-be-an-outbreak-of-another-pandemic-it-may-be-next-year/


It will be another great opportunity for the Great Reset and its totalitarian clampdown on the proles. Eh?
RayR Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Some people say "IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE! THIS IS AMERIKA!"

In the Event of an Official US Bankruptcy

05/12/2023
Stephen Anderson

Quote:
The current known federal debt is $31.7 trillion according to the web site, US Debt Clock, which is about $94,726 for every man, woman, and child who are citizens as of April 24, 2023. Can you write a check right now made payable to the United States Treasury for the known share of the federal debt of each member of your family after liquidating the assets you own?

A report released by the St. Louis Federal Reserve Branch on March 6, 2023, stated a similar figure for the total known federal debt of about $31.4 trillion as of December 31, 2022. The federal debt size is so great, it can never be repaid in its current form.

Some of us have been in or known families or businesses who had financial debt that could not be paid, when adjustments like reducing expenses, increasing income, renegotiating loan repayments to lender(s), and selling assets to raise money for loan repayment are not enough. The reality is that they still could not pay the debt owed to the lender(s).

This leads to filing bankruptcy under federal bankruptcy laws overseen by a federal bankruptcy court.

More...

https://mises.org/wire/event-official-us-bankruptcy

rfenst Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
How Biden Blew It on the Debt Ceiling


Paul Krugman
NYT Opinion

As soon as Republicans took control of the House last November, it was obvious that they would try to take the economy hostage by refusing to raise the federal debt limit. After all, that’s what they did in 2011 — and hard as it may be to believe, the Tea Party Republicans were sober and sane compared to the MAGA crew. So it was also obvious that the Biden administration needed a strategy to head off the looming crisis.

More and more, however, it looks as if there never was a strategy beyond wishful thinking. I hope that I’m wrong about this — that President Biden will, at the last minute, unveil an effective counter to G.O.P. blackmail. He may even be forced to do so, as I’ll explain in a bit. But right now I have a sick feeling about all of this. What were they thinking? How can they have been caught so off-guard by something that everyone who’s paying attention saw coming?

For those somehow new to this, the United States has a weird and dysfunctional system in which Congress enacts legislation that determines federal spending and revenue, but then, if this legislation leads to a budget deficit, must vote a second time to authorize borrowing to cover the deficit. If even one house of Congress refuses to raise the debt limit, the U.S. government will go into default, with possibly catastrophic financial and economic effects.

This weird aspect of budgeting allows a party that is sufficiently ruthless, sufficiently indifferent to the havoc it might wreak, to attempt to impose through extortion policies it would never be able to enact through the normal legislative process.

What, then, should Biden & Co. have done once Republicans took the House? They could have tried to raise the debt ceiling during the lame-duck session. This would have been hard given an evenly divided Senate. If it was possible at all, it probably would have required making big concessions to those Democratic senators least supportive of Biden’s agenda. Still, better to have a hostage negotiation with Joe Manchin than with Marjorie Taylor Greene.

So unless there was a plan to deal with the coming confrontation, there should have been a major effort to raise the debt ceiling. The fact that there was no such effort suggested that maybe there was such a plan.

But all we’ve seen from Biden officials since the House changed hands has been a combination of assertions that a U.S. default would be catastrophic — which may well be true — and denigration of any and all possible end runs around the debt ceiling. My heart sank, for example, when Janet Yellen, the Treasury secretary, repeatedly rejected the idea of minting a platinum coin — one of several possible ways to bypass the debt limit — as a “gimmick.” Yes, it would be a gimmick, but it would also be harmless. As I explained the other day, it would not mean printing money to cover the deficit; in practice, it would amount to carrying out normal borrowing through a back door.

The problem is that Yellen was in effect saying that the administration wasn’t open to any strategies that sounded silly or unorthodox; yet every strategy that avoids the debt limit must, in fact, be unorthodox, and will probably sound silly if taken out of context.

The economic merits of various unconventional financing strategies aside, think about how the White House was positioning itself politically. On one side, it signaled that it was terrified of the consequences of default; on the other, it made it clear that it was unwilling even to consider any alternatives to an increase in the debt limit. The administration might as well have put a sign on its back saying “Kick Me.”

Maybe the administration expected moderate Republicans or business groups or supposedly nonpartisan advocacy groups to somehow step in and pressure the G.O.P. to produce a clean debt ceiling bill. But I don’t see how anyone who has been awake for the past 15 years could have believed that was a real possibility.

And sure enough, after months of asserting that it would never engage in negotiations over the debt ceiling, that it would accept nothing less than a clean increase, the administration is now … negotiating over the debt ceiling.

Many people have pointed out that this sets a terrible precedent, that having seen that extortion works, Republicans will engage in it again and again. Even these concerns, however, seem to me to be taking too long a view. Now that Republicans see what seems to be an administration on the run, there’s every reason to expect them to keep escalating their immediate demands — quite possibly to the point where no deal is possible.

There’s a precedent from the Obama years. Back in 2011, President Obama and John Boehner, who was then the speaker of the House, came very close to a so-called Grand Bargain on debt that would have been objectively terrible — it would, for example, have raised the age of eligibility for Medicare, even though life expectancy for working-class Americans had risen very little — and would probably have been politically disastrous for Democrats. But the deal fell through because Republicans were unwilling to accept even small tax increases as part of a deficit-reduction plan.

Sure enough, Republicans have reportedly rejected every proposal to make a debt ceiling deal more acceptable to the Democratic base by closing tax loopholes.

I have no idea what happens next. I think there’s a real possibility that Biden officials will in the end be forced by sheer Republican intransigence to adopt unconventional methods after all — a task that will be made much harder by the fact that those same officials have spent months trash-talking the approaches they may need to follow.

But I don’t see any way to regard this whole episode as anything but a disastrous failure to face up to the reality of an opposition party controlled by extremists.
ZRX1200 Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,613
Till there are REAL spending cuts, this is a waste of breath.

Both parties have blame.

If it’s not enumerated powers then bye bye. I can name lots of ways to cut spending……
ZRX1200 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,613
GOP blackmail
Janet Yellen
Through the back door
Tax loopholes

You know what a loophole is? Complying with the law. Engaging in this use of language is pathetic just like the guy who’s always wrong PK.
RayR Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
That Keynesian Krugman, what a piece of work. Pure rhetorical hogwash. The Republicans are taking "the economy hostage by refusing to raise the federal debt limit"? Really? As lame as the Republican party is, at least they are trying to stem the tide of the ceaseless Democrat Build Back Better spending that WILL destroy the economy.

I always knew he hated the American system of federalism, you know as he wrote that "weird and dysfunctional system in which Congress enacts legislation that determines federal spending and revenue" He especially hates it only when big-spending Keynesians in Congress don't get their way doing unconstitutional spending.
I think he would much prefer a Left-Wing Dicktator to decide how to spend the stolen loot—much simpler that way.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Pedo Joe and his handlers never though the Republican's in Congress would unite and send over a budget.

They've done their job.

The Senate and the President haven't. They're the same political party.

As a nation we're spending more on the interest than we do for our military.

See the problem yet? No? You NEVER will.
JGKAMIN Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 05-08-2011
Posts: 1,403
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Pedo Joe and his handlers never though the Republican's in Congress would unite and send over a budget.

They've done their job.

The Senate and the President haven't. They're the same political party.

As a nation we're spending more on the interest than we do for our military.

See the problem yet? No? You NEVER will.

And don’t forget the contributions to the Ukraine…Herfing
RayR Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
I heard the Demo-Bolsheviks don't need a stinking budget because federal spending and money printing is an open-ended affair they say.
rfenst Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
No negotiations ever lead to settlement unless both parties have something at stake. Their commonality is an impending deadline- as it is in most negotiations. I was a Florida Supreme Court Certified Mediator and have participated in an uncountable number of mediations. You know when parties virtually always reach settlement? Lunch or dinner time when both sides are getting hungry and the mediation bill is running up. No difference here, thus far.
RayR Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
"...prioritizes interest payments.

Needless to say, the Imperial City fears these three bolded words more than Dracula feared a glittering crucifix. Yet what hangs in the balance is whether even a semblance of fiscal sanity can be recouped based on this primal and only remaining source of budgetary leverage."

Why Grandma Yellen Must Be Forced To Prioritize Spending

By David Stockman
David Stockman's Contra Corner
May 17, 2023

Quote:
Let’s first reprise the great 2011 debt ceiling showdown. On July 28, just a few days prior to when the Treasury’s borrowing authority would have been exhausted, the yield on the benchmark 10-year UST note stood at 2.98%. And despite months of heated warnings to the freshly elected GOP House majority about its duty to promptly pass a “clean” debt ceiling increase that figure was actually down considerably from the 3.36% yield of early January 2011.

That’s right. As shown below, the whole seven month ordeal on Capitol Hill about the expiring borrowing authority resulted in, well, an irregular but marked decline of the benchmark bond yield.

On July 31st the House GOP famously capitulated, agreeing to a big debt ceiling increase in return for what was advertised to be $2.1 trillion of deficit reductions over the next decade. At that point the yield dropped further to 2.58% on August 5th, the day S&P dramatically cut the UST credit rating from AAA to AA+ after the market closed.

The folks at S&P were apparently not amused by the banana republic “brinkmanship” that had prevailed on Capitol Hill for the better part of the year. So they sternly admonished Washington that—

The downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenge,” the company said in a statement

.Did the yield soar the next week in response to America’s loss of its purported pristine credit rating, as had been warned ad nauseam by the Wall Street and Washington powers that be in the run-up to the crisis?

Why, no, it did not. By year-end 2011 the yield had further fallen to 1.89% and, as shown above, by the first anniversary of the downgrade in early August 2012 it had plummeted to just 1.50%.

Moreover, by the latter point the Y/Y inflation rate was running at 2.0% on our trusty 16% trimmed mean CPI. In effect, one-year after all the debt ceiling strum and drang of 2011 the real yield on the benchmark government security was negative 50 basis points. That is to say, the US government lost its pristine credit rating and was rewarded with tens of billions of annual debt service savings!

It might be argued, of course, that the $2.1 trillion deficit reduction plan which accompanied the GOP debt ceiling capitulation was what caused yields to go down, not up. But that doesn’t wash, either.

These deficit reductions were to be achieved by—

A defense and nondefense discretionary appropriations freeze that was to save $900 billion over ten years;
A further $1.2 trillion of savings from entitlements based on permanent reforms to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Food Stamps etc. via the recommendations of a Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction.

More...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2023/05/david-stockman/why-grandma-yellen-must-be-forced-to-prioritize-spending/
rfenst Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
No, the government doesn’t have to pay off its debts like you do. Here’s why.


NYT Opinion by Paul Krugman

Whenever I write about debt and deficits, I receive the same letter — OK, not exactly the same letter, but a number of letters with more or less the same gist. They read something like this: “If I borrow money from the bank, the bank expects me to pay the money back. Why isn’t the same true for the government? Why can we keep borrowing when we already owe $31 trillion?”

Just about every economist will reply that it’s misleading to make an analogy between household and government finances. But it seems to me that we often aren’t clear enough about why, perhaps because we don’t say it bluntly enough. So here’s the difference: You are going to get old and eventually die. The government isn’t.

I don’t mean that governments are immortal. Nothing is, and no doubt someday America will, as Rudyard Kipling put it, be “one with Nineveh and Tyre.” But individuals face a more or less predictable life cycle in which their earnings will eventually dwindle:

(graph)

And lenders therefore demand that individual borrowers pay off their debts while they still have the income to do so.
Governments, on the other hand, normally see their revenues rise, generation after generation, as the economies they regulate and tax grow:

(graph)

Governments, then, must service their debts — pay interest and repay principal when bonds come due — but they don’t necessarily have to pay them off; they can issue new bonds to pay principal on old bonds, and even borrow to pay interest as long as overall debt doesn’t rise too much faster than revenue.

In fact, when governments for one reason or another run up large debts, it is, as far as I can tell, unusual to pay those debts off.

The most famous example, albeit one that many people apparently don’t know about, is the debt America incurred to fight World War II. By the war’s end, this debt was around 100 percent of gross domestic product — roughly comparable to the debt level today. So how did we pay off that debt?

We didn’t. John F. Kennedy entered the White House with federal debt roughly the same as it was on V-J Day:

(graph)

Why, then, wasn’t the 1960 election dominated by questions of how to pay off the national debt? Because while the dollar value of debt hadn’t gone down, economic growth and modest inflation meant that the ratio of debt to G.D.P. had fallen by half:

(graph)

This kind of thing could in some cases happen for an individual family: If people buy a house when they’re young, then make substantial income gains, their mortgage payments may dwindle as a percentage of their income even before the mortgage is paid off. But it’s normal for governments, which can expect to see their tax receipts grow year after year with no end in sight.

Revisiting the story of America’s failure to repay World War II debt, I found myself wondering whether governments borrowing large sums that they never repay could be thought of as a newfangled, dubious innovation — hey, this is the 1950s we’re talking about, but there are people out there who are still predicting doom from F.D.R.’s decision to take us off the gold standard in 1933.

Well, governments have often borrowed to fight wars, sometimes on an impressive scale. By the end of the Napoleonic Wars, the British government’s debt, according to Bank of England estimates, was 184 percent of G.D.P. — far above America’s debt at the end of World War II. Most of that debt, by the way, consisted of consols — perpetual bonds that pay interest forever but never require repayment of principal. Still, even those can be retired. So how did Britain pay off its Napoleonic debt? It didn’t.

Reviewing the whole history of British debt over the centuries would obscure what happened (modern numbers are so large that historical movements become invisible), so let’s zoom out just a little and focus on the period between 1776, when Britain began an expensive colonial war you may have heard about, and 1851, the date of the Crystal Palace exposition celebrating industrial and technological progress:

Sure enough, British public debt when Prince Albert opened the Crystal Palace was basically unchanged from its level when the Duke of Wellington won the Battle of Waterloo 36 years earlier. The idea that we should expect governments to pay off their debt isn’t just ill-informed, it’s also centuries out of date.

In fact, Britain’s willingness to let its Napoleonic debt just sit there is in a way even more remarkable than America’s later willingness to live with its World War II debt. After all, 19th-century Britain didn’t experience sustained inflation, and while it was experiencing economic growth at a rate never before seen in history — hence the Crystal Palace — that growth was still fairly slow by later standards. As a result, debt relative to national income was still quite high in 1851: 130 percent of G.D.P.

Yet as far as I know, panicky moralizing about the debt didn’t dominate British politics, which seemed to adopt the attitude satirized in “1066 and All That”: “The National Debt is a very Good Thing and it would be dangerous to pay it off, for fear of Political Economy.” Instead, the public was preoccupied with issues like the Great Stink of 1858.

In much more recent history, when governments were mistakenly pursuing fiscal austerity in the face of high unemployment, I used to accuse deficit scolds of being obsessed with Victorian virtues. I was, I now realize, being unfair to the Victorians.

So for all those whose instinct is to assume that a responsible government would, like a responsible individual, pay off its debts as soon as it can, again: Governments aren’t like people. If death and taxes are the only sure things in life, well, death isn’t an issue for governments, and taxes are an asset — a growing asset — rather than a liability.
RayR Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Krugman is such a condescending jerk squawking from his perch. It's like he's talking down to a little kid.
So he starts with basically this...Let me tell you little Johnny, the government is not like you or your mommy and daddy, although government isn't immortal, it generally lives much much longer than you mortals before it turns to dust.

So that thing called government is not constrained by time or the laws of economics that mortals are. As a matter of fact, if you mortals failed to pay your debts, especially those debts that the government has arbitrarily decided you owe it, then you could have everything you own confiscated by the government and you may even end up in prison too.

Not government though, it doesn't have to earn its income since its only income is gained by stealing in one form or another.
It's even got better plundering techniques than an organized crime protection racket.
Government plunders primarily by taxation, especially direct taxation of the mortals these days, secondly since the year 1913 (incidently the same year it invented the power of direct taxation through constitutional amendment) it now plunders by the stealth tax of inflation which it does by ever-increasing public debt creation which has exploded since the dollar was disconnected from any honest money limiting factor like gold and silver. The mortals only experience this tax by getting poorer watching the buying power of their fiat money dwindle, although most mortals are unaware of why this happening, many even may have bought into the FED prophaganda that inflation is perfectly normal, don't worry about it.

rfenst Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-23-2007
Posts: 39,330
Debt-Ceiling Standoff Could Start a Recession, but Default Would Be Worse

Economists assess the damage that could occur in three scenarios ranging from a last-minute deal to lengthy impasse

WSJ

Prolonged debt-ceiling squabbling could push the U.S. economy into recession, while a government default on its obligations might touch off a severe financial crisis.

U.S. lawmakers are negotiating over raising the federal government’s borrowing limit and may have just days to act before the standoff reverberates through the economy.

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said that the government could become unable to pay bills on time by June 1. In that case, the Treasury Department could halt payments, such as to federal employees or veterans.

In a worst-case scenario, a failure to pay holders of U.S. government debt, a linchpin of the global financial system, could trigger severe recession and send stock prices plummeting and borrowing costs soaring.

Many economists don’t expect a default for the first time in U.S. history. But they outline three potential ways the standoff could affect the economy and financial system, ranging from not great to extremely scary.

Scenario 1: Last-Minute Deal
The economy is already slowing due to rising interest rates, with many forecasters expecting a recession this year. While lawmakers haggle, uncertainty could cause consumers, investors and businesses to retrench, increasing the chances of a recession, said Joel Prakken, chief U.S. economist at S&P Global Market Intelligence.

Workers aren’t likely to lose their jobs, but the unpredictability of the economic outlook could cause them to put off purchases.

Stock prices could start to decline as June 1 nears. In 2011, when Congress raised the debt ceiling just hours before a deadline, stocks fell and took months to recover, Prakken said. In the aftermath, the nation’s credit rating was downgraded.

“Even if we get an agreement before we run out of resources there still could be a legacy effect of the uncertainty that restrains economic growth,” Prakken said.

S&P Global Market Intelligence projected in March that financial turmoil similar to 2011 could slow growth in U.S. gross domestic product to 0.1% in the fourth quarter of this year from a year earlier, from an estimated 0.6% gain otherwise.

Scenario 2: Deal After Deadline
If negotiations extend beyond Thursday June 1, economists expect a more severe reaction from financial markets, as the possibility for default looks more real.

“The shock would tend to accelerate quite rapidly” on June 1, said Gregory Daco, chief economist at Ernst & Young.

If consumers’ retirement and investment accounts suddenly shrink, they could sharply curtail their spending, the lifeblood of the U.S. economy. Businesses could pause hiring and investment plans.

There is a possible window between June 1 and any missed payments. Yellen wrote that the actual date Treasury exhausts its cash could be days or weeks later than estimated. The Bipartisan Policy Center projects Treasury to spend $622.5 billion in June while taking in $495 billion in tax revenue. The exact timing of those inflows and outflows impact cash reserves.

Another possibility is that for a short time, the government gives priority to debt payments over others, such as Social Security benefits. Economists at UBS say that would have a notable, but less-severe, economic impact than a debt default.

They estimate under that scenario GDP would contract at a 2% annual rate in the third quarter, and shrink further in the fourth quarter. Employers would shed 250,000 jobs in the second half of the year.

The silver lining of an economic downturn: Inflation would likely come down, as the Federal Reserve wants. The central bank could also cut interest rates to help offset some of the economic weakness.

Scenario 3: No Deal
If no deal is reached and the government can’t pay all its bills for days or weeks, repercussions would be enormous.

“There would be chaos in the global financial system because Treasurys are so important,” said Wendy Edelberg, an economist at the Brookings Institution. “What happens when that thing that everybody is benchmarking themselves to proves to be one of the riskiest things out there?”

Ernst & Young’s Daco said a default would trigger a recession more severe than the 2007-09 downturn.

The value of Treasurys would fall, as investors sell off and possibly permanently reduce their holdings. Missed payments would disrupt multitrillion-dollar global flows in short-term dollar borrowing, which are critical to how banks and companies fund operations.

Investment funds, companies and banks all hold Treasurys. Their falling value would hammer balance sheets. Recent bank runs were sparked by falling values of Treasury debt, and the declines could be much steeper in a default.

Analysts also say many investors would flee from risky assets of all sorts. The stock market would plummet 45% in the following months, and unemployment would shoot up by 5 percentage points, a White House report said. UBS said a month-long impasse would cause the economy to contract for four-straight quarters.

Treasury yields influence interest rates across the economy, so consumers could see rates jump for credit-card debt, mortgages and auto loans.

Unlike in the 2020 Covid-19 recession—when the economy shed more than 20 million jobs but the government pumped trillions of dollars of stimulus—Washington would be unable to offer support, the White House report said.
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