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Last post 7 years ago by teddyballgame. 27 replies replies.
She was for vouchers before she was against vouchers
Abrignac Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,263
From “The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents Are (Still) Going Broke” (2003)

Any policy that loosens the ironclad relationship between location-location-location and school-school-school would eliminate the need for parents to pay an inflated price for a home just because it happens to lie within the boundaries of a desirable school district.

A well-designed voucher program would fit the bill neatly. A taxpayer-funded voucher that paid the entire cost of educating a child (not just a partial subsidy) would open a range of opportunities to all children. . . . Fully funded vouchers would relieve parents from the terrible choice of leaving their kids in lousy schools or bankrupting themselves to escape those schools.

We recognize that the term “voucher” has become a dirty word in many educational circles. The reason is straightforward: The current debate over vouchers is framed as a public-versus-private rift, with vouchers denounced for draining off much-needed funds from public schools. The fear is that partial-subsidy vouchers provide a boost so that better-off parents can opt out of a failing public school system, while the other children are left behind.

But the public-versus-private competition misses the central point. The problem is not vouchers; the problem is parental choice. Under current voucher schemes, children who do not use the vouchers are still assigned to public schools based on their zip codes. This means that in the overwhelming majority of cases, a bureaucrat picks the child’s school, not a parent. The only way for parents to exercise any choice is to buy a different home—which is exactly how the bidding wars started.

Short of buying a new home, parents currently have only one way to escape a failing public school: Send the kids to private school. But there is another alternative, one that would keep much-needed tax dollars inside the public school system while still reaping the advantages offered by a voucher program. Local governments could enact meaningful reform by enabling parents to choose from among all the public schools in a locale, with no presumptive assignment based on neighborhood. Under a public school voucher program, parents, not bureaucrats, would have the power to pick schools for their children—and to choose which schools would get their children’s vouchers.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,394
http://humanevents.com/2012/09/04/native-american-delegates-ask-fauxcahontas-to-explain-herself/
teddyballgame Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
Call it what you want.

If "voucher" is a dirty word than abuse the term "school choice".

The dems are for "choice"- I hear it all the time.

A half voucher system isn't going to open up a bunch of choices. The better schools will limit class size, thus blocking out many who would utilize the program.

Open it up to competition, private schools, public, charter, religious schools and you will see real change in the quality of education.
jjanecka Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
They just need to dismantle the entire public education system and privatize it.
DrafterX Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
let the schools decide their own curriculum..?? That would get interesting... you'd have 4.0 students graduating with 7th grade edjumucations... Mellow
jjanecka Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
That already happens thanks to the public school system.
jjanecka Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 12-08-2015
Posts: 4,334
Matter of fact when I left private school, I had straight A's the first year in public school. After that I was failing classes because I was dying of boredom. Never had to study for tests; I always got A's on them so I never did the homework and that's what flunked me.
abjd14 Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 08-08-2012
Posts: 396
Who paid for your private school, Jjanecka? All the sliver spoons lying around your house?
DrafterX Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
jjanecka wrote:
That already happens thanks to the public school system.



students get passed but not with 4.0s... but if there wasn't any gubment funding there wouldn't be much of an incentive to pass the kids at all... Mellow
abjd14 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 08-08-2012
Posts: 396
I work in a school only 10 miles from the best public high school in the country. They are one of the best because they pay their teachers more than any school in the country and all of the people that live in the district are wealthy and care about their community and schools. They consistently override the state budget tax cap and give anything the school needs, moneywise. Schools are successful if they get the resources they need. That is, good teachers and funding for all programs. You won't read about my school in the paper, but I believe it is just as good. The state owes our district around 76 million dollars over the past 5 years because they refuse to give us the money that is promised and budgeted for in the state budget.
frankj1 Online
#11 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
abjd14 wrote:
I work in a school only 10 miles from the best public high school in the country. They are one of the best because they pay their teachers more than any school in the country and all of the people that live in the district are wealthy and care about their community and schools. They consistently override the state budget tax cap and give anything the school needs, moneywise. Schools are successful if they get the resources they need. That is, good teachers and funding for all programs. You won't read about my school in the paper, but I believe it is just as good. The state owes our district around 76 million dollars over the past 5 years because they refuse to give us the money that is promised and budgeted for in the state budget.

where do you live?
tailgater Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
abjd14 wrote:
I work in a school only 10 miles from the best public high school in the country. They are one of the best because they pay their teachers more than any school in the country and all of the people that live in the district are wealthy and care about their community and schools. They consistently override the state budget tax cap and give anything the school needs, moneywise. Schools are successful if they get the resources they need. That is, good teachers and funding for all programs. You won't read about my school in the paper, but I believe it is just as good. The state owes our district around 76 million dollars over the past 5 years because they refuse to give us the money that is promised and budgeted for in the state budget.


Community support is important, but you're putting way too much emphasis on an unlimited resource pool.
Charter schools in Massachusetts are out pacing the public schools and they're doing it with less. My daughter's school was built to support the demand. The building was built on time for under $10MM and has room for 400 students.
Compare that to the $90MM Plus spent locally for a school of 800 to renovate.

Money is spent wisely.
Smaller class size, but fewer amenities.
Hell, they don't have a cafeteria or gym.

It's not a perfect fit for every student. We chose to keep our son in the public high school.
Point being, there is (or should be) a happy medium.
unfettered spending is a recipe for disaster.
unfettered spending is a recipe for disaster.
Yeah. It's worth repeating.

The success story you speak of is probably due more to how the money spent, rather than how much they have to spend.

abjd14 Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 08-08-2012
Posts: 396
The cost of building schools is different from yearly school budgets. Usually building's are built with bonds paid over years. I work in westchester, ny. I think having an unlimited budget is unreasonable, although I do agree with community support. The school district I speak of just happens to have unlimited resources.

As far as charter schools many are great but often operate under their own rule's which... (I won't get into that debate) but research charter schools pros and cons.

@tailgater I applaud your decision to keep your child in a public school. I can only.speak for where I live and work but public school teachers are more qualified. They are required to have a teaching license issued from an acredited university and a masters degree in education, and 175 course hours of continuing education every 5 years. Private schools don't even require a teaching certification from their state. (Disclaimer: I am sure there are highly qualified teachers in private schools but since it is not required and the schook probably pays staff less in most cases you will find more qualified teachers in public school.
frankj1 Online
#14 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
abjd14 wrote:
The cost of building schools is different from yearly school budgets. Usually building's are built with bonds paid over years. I work in westchester, ny. I think having an unlimited budget is unreasonable, although I do agree with community support. The school district I speak of just happens to have unlimited resources.

As far as charter schools many are great but often operate under their own rule's which... (I won't get into that debate) but research charter schools pros and cons.

@tailgater I applaud your decision to keep your child in a public school. I can only.speak for where I live and work but public school teachers are more qualified. They are required to have a teaching license issued from an acredited university and a masters degree in education, and 175 course hours of continuing education every 5 years. Private schools don't even require a teaching certification from their state. (Disclaimer: I am sure there are highly qualified teachers in private schools but since it is not required and the schook probably pays staff less in most cases you will find more qualified teachers in public school.

+1
tailgater Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
abjd14 wrote:


As far as charter schools many are great but often operate under their own rule's which... (I won't get into that debate) but research charter schools pros and cons.

@tailgater I applaud your decision to keep your child in a public school. I can only.speak for where I live and work but public school teachers are more qualified. They are required to have a teaching license issued from an acredited university and a masters degree in education, and 175 course hours of continuing education every 5 years. Private schools don't even require a teaching certification from their state. (Disclaimer: I am sure there are highly qualified teachers in private schools but since it is not required and the schook probably pays staff less in most cases you will find more qualified teachers in public school.



Kids go to the local public school unless they choose an alternative:
Private
Charter
Home school
School choice/vouchers

Each of these options could be better or worse. But nobody is ever forced into taking one.
If the non-public school has inferior teachers because of different requirements then people wouldn't send their kids.
If a charter has fewer amenities that appeal to you, then you don't send your kid.
But instead, we have people trying to prevent others from having that choice.

Great schools are composed of many things.
A strong history and community support (non financial) is every bit as important as financial resources.

In your town, it sounds like the public schools are top notch. You're very fortunate and the decision to send your kids there sounds like an easy one.
And my local is a good option for many kids, but the charter school was a much better option for my middle daughter. An option that might not be available in the future if the teaching unions continue to force their agenda.


frankj1 Online
#16 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
also good...I am conflicted
Brewha Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,161
Abrignac wrote:
From “The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents Are (Still) Going Broke” (2003)

Any policy that loosens the ironclad relationship between location-location-location and school-school-school would eliminate the need for parents to pay an inflated price for a home just because it happens to lie within the boundaries of a desirable school district.

A well-designed voucher program would fit the bill neatly. A taxpayer-funded voucher that paid the entire cost of educating a child (not just a partial subsidy) would open a range of opportunities to all children. . . . Fully funded vouchers would relieve parents from the terrible choice of leaving their kids in lousy schools or bankrupting themselves to escape those schools.

We recognize that the term “voucher” has become a dirty word in many educational circles. The reason is straightforward: The current debate over vouchers is framed as a public-versus-private rift, with vouchers denounced for draining off much-needed funds from public schools. The fear is that partial-subsidy vouchers provide a boost so that better-off parents can opt out of a failing public school system, while the other children are left behind.

But the public-versus-private competition misses the central point. The problem is not vouchers; the problem is parental choice. Under current voucher schemes, children who do not use the vouchers are still assigned to public schools based on their zip codes. This means that in the overwhelming majority of cases, a bureaucrat picks the child’s school, not a parent. The only way for parents to exercise any choice is to buy a different home—which is exactly how the bidding wars started.

Short of buying a new home, parents currently have only one way to escape a failing public school: Send the kids to private school. But there is another alternative, one that would keep much-needed tax dollars inside the public school system while still reaping the advantages offered by a voucher program. Local governments could enact meaningful reform by enabling parents to choose from among all the public schools in a locale, with no presumptive assignment based on neighborhood. Under a public school voucher program, parents, not bureaucrats, would have the power to pick schools for their children—and to choose which schools would get their children’s vouchers.


Now that is a really interesting analysis and conclusion of the situation.
Where did you get it?
teddyballgame Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
That OP is from the very gob of...

Eliz. Warren. AKA Hypocrite.
tailgater Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Abrignac wrote:
From “The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents Are (Still) Going Broke” (2003)

Any policy that loosens the ironclad relationship between location-location-location and school-school-school would eliminate the need for parents to pay an inflated price for a home just because it happens to lie within the boundaries of a desirable school district.

A well-designed voucher program would fit the bill neatly. A taxpayer-funded voucher that paid the entire cost of educating a child (not just a partial subsidy) would open a range of opportunities to all children. . . . Fully funded vouchers would relieve parents from the terrible choice of leaving their kids in lousy schools or bankrupting themselves to escape those schools.

We recognize that the term “voucher” has become a dirty word in many educational circles. The reason is straightforward: The current debate over vouchers is framed as a public-versus-private rift, with vouchers denounced for draining off much-needed funds from public schools. The fear is that partial-subsidy vouchers provide a boost so that better-off parents can opt out of a failing public school system, while the other children are left behind.

But the public-versus-private competition misses the central point. The problem is not vouchers; the problem is parental choice. Under current voucher schemes, children who do not use the vouchers are still assigned to public schools based on their zip codes. This means that in the overwhelming majority of cases, a bureaucrat picks the child’s school, not a parent. The only way for parents to exercise any choice is to buy a different home—which is exactly how the bidding wars started.

Short of buying a new home, parents currently have only one way to escape a failing public school: Send the kids to private school. But there is another alternative, one that would keep much-needed tax dollars inside the public school system while still reaping the advantages offered by a voucher program. Local governments could enact meaningful reform by enabling parents to choose from among all the public schools in a locale, with no presumptive assignment based on neighborhood. Under a public school voucher program, parents, not bureaucrats, would have the power to pick schools for their children—and to choose which schools would get their children’s vouchers.


I am not a proponent of school choice or vouchers.
You want your kid to attend XYZ High School? Then move there.
That's how my parents did it.
You moved into a town that you "could afford". But towards what end?
Do you get the biggest house in a mediocre town? Or a tiny home in a very good town?
You sacrificed and did what you felt was best. Some more than others.

Nowadays?
You just b*tch and moan enough and send your kid to the ritzy town. Because that's what you consider fair.
You didn't sacrifice. You didn't earn it. You just whined until everyone gave in.

teddyballgame Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
Well that is all well and good if you have $$.
The people that "Non Vouchers" hurt the most are the poor. The poor in horrible school systems that cannot financially move and are not allowed to send their child with voucher funds to a different school district. The parents that would like to help their child escape their present state, would have an option if they could take their voucher with funds and get their child to a better school.

So I am a huge proponent of School choice.

Why is it that we have a myriad of choices for toasters, pencils, cars, but that you are saddled with a monopoly type system when it comes to education?

If you haven't seen the movie "Waiting for Superman," I would recommend a viewing as it is an eye opener.
victor809 Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
... we care about the poor?

Since when?

And how is the ability to move not part of "choice"?
teddyballgame Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
Obama didn't care about the poor.

I think his 2nd exec. order was to abolish the D.C. school voucher program, that helped poor families get out of that crappy system.
Didn't affect him though.. Sidwell Friends is where the richy rich go in that area. The rest can eat cake..even if it was a minority prez and they were minority poor.

Now, just let me tee up my ball on my over 300 rounds of golf as Prez. FORE!!

And mobility is a part of choice, I agree. But for the very poor, mobility can be a problem.
victor809 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Why do you care about whether obama cares about the poor? He's not president. Trump is. I'll restate. Since when have we cared about the poor?

I doubt we do now. I certainly dont.

Maybe we cared in the 1800s... but I doubt it then too....
teddyballgame Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
I care about liberty for everyone and that includes the poor.

School choice is liberty.
DrafterX Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,536
Think
sounds more like freedom... Mellow
elRopo Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 02-17-2014
Posts: 905
DrafterX wrote:
Think
sounds more like freedom... Mellow

I love the smell of napalm in the morning
teddyballgame Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-16-2015
Posts: 592
liberty or freedom.. kind of cut from the same fabric.

Just give me more of both!
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