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Last post 7 years ago by DrMaddVibe. 49 replies replies.
Back in da day....
DrafterX Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Someone woulda just smacked them around a little bit.... Not talking



Colin Kaepernick’s National Anthem protest has started a ripple effect across the sports spectrum, reaching other NFL players, soccer stars and even high school student athletes. On Wednesday, his protest trickled into the Missouri Legislature.

State Sen. Jamilah Nasheed, a St. Louis Democrat, refused to stand while her colleagues recited the Pledge of Allegiance in the state Capitol. She said her silent protest on the Senate floor was intended to show solidarity with the San Francisco 49ers quarterback.

Kaepernick has kneeled for the National Anthem in protest of police brutality and what he has described as social injustice against minorities in the U.S. Nasheed, who is black, said she wants to call attention to those issues and isn’t “anti-America.” Nasheed’s protest was met with silence in the chamber.

Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder, a former GOP candidate for governor who presided over the Senate Wednesday, released a statement calling Nasheed's protest an "occasion for great sorrow." He said he worried about "the example she is setting, particularly for our young people."



Film at 11.... Not talking
gummy jones Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
bet she'll still cash her check

they all still cash their checks
DrafterX Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Didn't she take some sort of oath..?? If she can't fulfill that oath she needs to step down... Mellow
MACS Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,747
Interesting FBI statistic about 'police brutality'. Police officers are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than they are to kill an unarmed black man.
DrafterX Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Did Victor approve that stat..?? Huh
gummy jones Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
some light reading recommendations from a brilliant man (not me)

Quote:
Election year politics generates much rhetoric and confusion. And the media often adds its spin. But, fortunately, there are some books around that deal with reality and can cut through the nonsense. Most of these books were not written during this election year, but what they presented can be very eye-opening on the issues raised by politicians this year.

If you are concerned about issues involved when some people want to expand the welfare state and others want to contract it, then one of the most relevant and insightful books is "Life at the Bottom" by Theodore Dalrymple. It was not written this year and is not even about the United States, much less our current presidential or other candidates.

What makes "Life at the Bottom" especially relevant and valuable is that it is about the actual consequences of the welfare state in England -- which are remarkably similar to the consequences in the United States.

Many Americans may find it easier to think straight about what happens, when it is in a country where the welfare recipients are overwhelmingly whites, so that their behavior cannot be explained away by "a legacy of slavery" or "institutional racism," or other such evasions of facts in the United States.

As Dr. Dalrymple says: "It will come as a surprise to American readers, perhaps, to learn that the majority of the British underclass is white, and that it demonstrates all the same social pathology as the black underclass in America -- for very similar reasons, of course." That reason is the welfare state, and the attitudes and behavior it promotes and subsidizes.

Another and very different example of the welfare state's actual consequences is "The New Trail of Tears" by Naomi Schaefer Riley. It is a painful but eye-opening account of life on American Indian reservations.

People on those reservations have been taken care of by the federal government for more than a hundred years. They have lived in a welfare state longer than any other minority in America. What have been the consequences?

One consequence is that they have lower incomes than any other minority -- including other American Indians, who do not live on reservations, and who are doing far better on their own.

The economic plight of people on the reservations is by no means the worst of it. The social problems are heart-breaking. As just one example, the leading cause of death, among American Indian boys from 10 to 14 years of age, is suicide.

As regards black Americans, there is much talk about the role of police. If you want a book that cuts through the rhetoric and confusion, and deals with hard facts, then "The War on Cops" by Heather Mac Donald does precisely that.

On racial issues in general, the best economic survey is "Race and Economics" by Professor Walter Williams of George Mason University. Just the table on page 35, showing unemployment rates among black and white teenagers, going all the way back to 1948, should demolish all the rhetoric and spin that tries to conceal the deadly effects of minimum wage laws on unemployment among black teenagers.


No community is better off for having large numbers of idle young males, hanging around with nothing to do except getting into trouble. Many other issues are covered in Professor Williams' book, including racial discrimination in general and the effects of various government interventions in the economy which disproportionately create problems for low-income minorities.

Among my own books, "Basic Economics" is probably best for people who want to look up a variety of economic issues, ranging from rent control to tax policies and international trade policies. It is written in plain English and has been translated into 7 foreign languages, so apparently many people find it useful and understandable.

For those who are especially interested in issues revolving around income distribution or the concentration of wealth, my "Wealth, Poverty and Politics" covers those issues and cuts through much political rhetoric on that subject.

So does another book on that subject: "Who's the Fairest of Them All?" by Stephen Moore. It was written four years ago, but it has a special relevance this year because Stephen Moore is now one of Donald Trump's economic advisors. That is one of the very few hopeful signs this election year.


http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/09/14/election-year-books-n2216610
Buckwheat Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
gummy jones wrote:
bet she'll still cash her check

they all still cash their checks


Just like Mitch McConnell even though he hasn't done his job since Obama became president. ram27bat
gummy jones Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
Buckwheat wrote:
Just like Mitch McConnell even though he hasn't done his job since Obama became president. ram27bat


the list goes on and on

but protesting the very government which you are a part of seems a little different than sitting idle
MACS Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,747
DrafterX wrote:
Did Victor approve that stat..?? Huh


I'm sure he's furiously researching it.

The FBI's Uniform Crime Report has all the numbers... he'd just need to do the math, I guess. Think
Krazeehorse Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Hopefully she gets "traded" at the earliest opportunity.
DrafterX Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
MACS wrote:
I'm sure he's furiously researching it.



ya think.. he normally disputes it first... Think
gummy jones Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 07-06-2015
Posts: 7,969
Krazeehorse wrote:
Hopefully she gets "traded" at the earliest opportunity.


you kidding
she just got a taxpayer funded job for life
DrafterX Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Colin Kaepernick’s very public protests against the national anthem have inspired other NFL football players to take similar stands against what they consider to be a “racist” and “oppressive” song, one emblematic of social injustice.

But while Kaepernick and his colleagues have been lauded by some members of the press, and defended by others—even in some cases financially rewarded for their principled stands—students who choose to replicate Kaepernick’s protests on high-school campuses are facing harsh punishments.

High-school football players in New Jersey, Alabama and Massachusetts, replicating Kaepernick’s stand, are facing suspension from school, harassment from their peers and even, they claim, threats against their physical well-being.

A Catholic school in Camden, New Jersey, has told coaches to discipline players who fail to stand for the national anthem, saying that football players are expected to “demonstrate appropriate respect,” for the flag. Students who choose not to might be suspended from the team, or may have to miss games.

The quarterback of a Massachusetts public school football team said on Twitter that he received a one-game suspension after saying he’d kneel during the national anthem. Fearing civil-rights litigation, it seems, the school district immediately reversed the decision when word got out. And a California high school lowered one Native American student’s grade when she refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

But while schools claim to have extenuating circumstances the NFL does not—keeping peace and order among younger and more impressionable people—the impulse to punish non-conforming students may actually be illegal. As long as student protests aren’t seen as “threatening,” students are likely within their rights to engage in political expression, according to the ACLU.

Students have a Constitutionally protected right to freedom of speech, even on school grounds, during school hours, though there are some exceptions, like agreed-upon dress codes.


Film at 11... Think Think





well I hope Kaepernick feels bad for getting kids beat up & suspended from school... Not talking
victor809 Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS... We have two problems. First - misapplication of data, that stat is meaningless without reference... Ie what's the likelihood of an officer being killed by a white person (in relation to the likelihood of them killing one)... It's a standard scare tactic stat with nothing to ground it to reality.

Second - Where did you get that stat? I know you're referencing the FBI data, but that doesn't pass the sniff test, someone has been playing with those numbers.

Your own data source for 2014 says 51 officers were killed by 59 suspects (that's fine)... 42 of those suspects were white and 13 black (the rest are other races). If your stat holds true, then we would expect 1 or less black person to be killed by the cops in 2014. I'm pretty sure that's gonna be higher. Clearly the number they're kicking around comes from another year or an average of years or is just wrong.

More importantly if you look at that data and compare number of whites killing cops vs number of whites killed by cops you're going to see that the stat you threw out is going to be way higher for whites. They're already killing over 3x the number of cops as blacks and they're getting shot less. And everyone loves to use the "well the blacks get arrested more, that's why they get shot by cops more" excuse... If you take that into account, then the whites are practically law enforcement officer serial killers....

Anyway, it's a dumb statistic on a couple different levels. Could be useful if you compared it to something equivalent... And if you can show me where they got that number.
DrafterX Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Laugh
victor809 Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Caveat... I'm assuming a close to 1:1 ratio of suspects to kills... It's possible all 42 white people were in on a single police officer kill... And the other blacks killed all the others. But that's unlikely
DrafterX Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
maybe it happened in a small town... Mellow
Gene363 Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,799
Going back to the OP, I am pretty confident that all of you have or currently work under workplace rules that do not allow discussing politics and religion on the job. These overpaid game players are "on the clock" so if the owners approve, they can protest all they want, heck if they are really serious, they should do it during the game. If the team owner does not approve, they should do as they are told or quit.
Gene363 Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,799
victor809 wrote:
MACS... We have two problems. First - misapplication of data, that stat is meaningless without reference... Ie what's the likelihood of an officer being killed by a white person (in relation to the likelihood of them killing one)... It's a standard scare tactic stat with nothing to ground it to reality.

Second - Where did you get that stat? I know you're referencing the FBI data, but that doesn't pass the sniff test, someone has been playing with those numbers.

Your own data source for 2014 says 51 officers were killed by 59 suspects (that's fine)... 42 of those suspects were white and 13 black (the rest are other races). If your stat holds true, then we would expect 1 or less black person to be killed by the cops in 2014. I'm pretty sure that's gonna be higher. Clearly the number they're kicking around comes from another year or an average of years or is just wrong.

More importantly if you look at that data and compare number of whites killing cops vs number of whites killed by cops you're going to see that the stat you threw out is going to be way higher for whites. They're already killing over 3x the number of cops as blacks and they're getting shot less. And everyone loves to use the "well the blacks get arrested more, that's why they get shot by cops more" excuse... If you take that into account, then the whites are practically law enforcement officer serial killers....

Anyway, it's a dumb statistic on a couple different levels. Could be useful if you compared it to something equivalent... And if you can show me where they got that number.


Huh, Maybe that sideways shooting thing isn't working too well. Sarcasm
DrafterX Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
Gene363 wrote:
Going back to the OP, I am pretty confident that all of you have or currently work under workplace rules that do not allow discussing politics and religion on the job. These overpaid game players are "on the clock" so if the owners approve, they can protest all they want, heck if they are really serious, they should do it during the game. If the team owner does not approve, they should do as they are told or quit.



they have overseers tho... the NFL was talking about fining some players last weekend for wearing patriotic cleats... Mellow
Buckwheat Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 04-15-2004
Posts: 12,251
Leave it to South Park to come in for the win on this.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/09/south-park-colin-kaepernick-anthem-protest-nfl

fog
DrafterX Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I like it.. ThumpUp
opelmanta1900 Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
Buckwheat wrote:
Leave it to South Park to come in for the win on this.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/09/south-park-colin-kaepernick-anthem-protest-nfl

fog


These guys are geniuses... can't wait to watch the episode...
tailgater Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Gene363 wrote:
Huh, Maybe that sideways shooting thing isn't working too well. Sarcasm


Is that how Victor was conceived?


frankj1 Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
tailgater wrote:
Is that how Victor was conceived?



I heard Webster Hubbell was his father
victor809 Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
If that's what it takes to understand statistics, maybe all your mothers should have been screwed sideways as well?
Speyside Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
Victor, I think your math is fuzzy. You are only looking at total police killings by blacks or whites. Why aren't you including the variable of population percentage? Whites make up 63 percent of the country, blacks make up 12.3 percent of the country. The chance of an officer being shot by a black person is much higher when considering percentages as opposed to gross numbers alone.
victor809 Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Yes, you are correct. But blacks are more likely to be arrested (whether rightly or wrongly is not part of the discussion), therefore have more interactions for that to occur...
Speyside Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 03-16-2015
Posts: 13,106
That I completely agree with. It would be another variable to include. Mathematically speaking these are complex equations and the raw data does not provide enough information to understand the problems.
victor809 Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Of course. My only point was to show the 18 officers killed per black man was both useless (as compared to whites that would likely be much higher) and probably wrong (as it didn't even closely jibe with the 2014 data I found)... In fact, it would be fear mongering data like that which leads to cops who are more afraid when interacting with black men and more likely to think they need to pull their gun and shoot, even if there is no reason (refer to guy in target with a toy gun, or kids with toy guns etc)
Gene363 Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,799
victor809 wrote:
If that's what it takes to understand statistics, maybe all your mothers should have been screwed sideways as well?


Ha! I got an A in statistics. It's BS'ing with numbers. ThumpUp
frankj1 Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 02-08-2007
Posts: 44,215
I got a "pass" in statistics but I didn't come away with BS'ing numbers
Victor is a threat here.
Covfireman Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 09-03-2015
Posts: 809
My statistics teacher was a stoner . He taught physics also . I got an A but he graded on a bong curve
Krazeehorse Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 04-09-2010
Posts: 1,958
Fun little vid going back to the OP.

"https://www.youtube.com/embed/qq0_nyWVXCI"
tailgater Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
victor809 wrote:
If that's what it takes to understand statistics, maybe all your mothers should have been screwed sideways as well?


Statistically, I'm sure some were.

DrafterX Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
I got an A in Statics... does that count..?? Huh
Gene363 Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,799
Covfireman wrote:
My statistics teacher was a stoner . He taught physics also . I got an A but he graded on a bong curve


Mine was a woman probability mathematician. All business and no nonsense, when asked about using her skills to win the state lottery, she turned stone faced and said, "This is what I think about the lottery." She took a dollar bill out of her purse, wadded it up, threw it in the trash can and went back to her lesson without a hitch.
MACS Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,747
frankj1 wrote:
I got a "pass" in statistics but I didn't come away with BS'ing numbers
Victor is a threat here.


Why? Because he spent 5 minutes looking up numbers to refute Heather MacDonald's numbers who actually did the research instead of a google search?

I'm taking her word for it. If he wants to go dig through her research and refute it, he can take that up with her. I'm not interested.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler
victor809 Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
MACS wrote:
Why? Because he spent 5 minutes looking up numbers to refute Heather MacDonald's numbers who actually did the research instead of a google search?

I'm taking her word for it. If he wants to go dig through her research and refute it, he can take that up with her. I'm not interested.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler


MACS... I looked up some numbers which would call hers into question. But I also pointed out that her numbers aren't even relevant in context.

Even if her number is accurate, you're smart enough to realize it isn't a number that is worth comparing. When someone protests the death of one race (whatever race) at the hands of law enforcement, just making a ratio of deaths to that race to deaths by that race is absolutely meaningless without another number to compare it to. When someone hands you a number like that your first reaction should be to ask "ok, is that number higher or lower than the other races, or than the national average across races"... Without that information the number is seriously meaningless... So yes, I question her numbers and her research, based on a quick look at the data you said she pulled it from it smells funny. But you're the one who chose to propagate a number which, even if it's correct, is absolutely meaningless. That's on you just as much as her.
tailgater Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Liars.
Damn Liars.
Statisticians.

In ascending order.

Just sayin.




opelmanta1900 Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
MACS:Police officers are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than they are to kill an unarmed black man.

VICTOR:ok, is that number higher or lower than the other races, or than the national average across races?



out of curiousity, in your mind Victor, what would it change about the above statistic if Police officers were 2 times more likely to be killed by a white man than they are to kill an unarmed white man?

what would it change about the above statistic if Police officers were 20 times more likely to be killed by a white man than they are to kill an unarmed white man?

and what would it change about the above statistic if Police officers were 200 times more likely to be killed by a white man than they are to kill an unarmed white man?



I've crunched the numbers a few times, a few different ways, and it turns out (unless you learned something different in Stat than I did) Police officers are still 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than they are to kill an unarmed black man, no matter what number I plug into the stat on white people... Maybe I need to run one on Mexicans and Asians... you think that would change the number Victor? Or the meaning of that number? Or the reality of that number?


I know you're not an fool Victor, but it's a fools way to reject available data because other data that you want isn't available... you may not like what the data says, you may not like what people are trying to say with the data, but the data is either accurate or inaccurate, and that should be the issue...
victor809 Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Opel. When you compare two pieces of data, you have to have a reason. The temperature in Atlanta and the number of rows of bricks in the Washington monument are both valid pieces of data, but you only relate them to each other if there's a meaningful connection. That connection has to come from the theme of your argument.

The "cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than a black man shot by the cops" data point is implicitly suggesting a theme of "cops need to be worried about being shot by black men". However, the data being provided is incomplete. From that number all we can say is "cops get killed by black men more than they shoot black men, however we don't know if they get shot by black men more often than they get shot by white men or Asian men or by raccoons for that matter, cops may be safest around black men, but we weren't bothered to check because we stopped at a number that sounded scary"... They left out the rest of the narrative I included, because they didn't want you to follow their inner monologue.

You're right, it's a valid number (we'll, as I said earlier it doesn't actually pass a sniff test for 2014,but maybe she was using a compilation of other years which were worse) but the data is being used to make suggestions which it doesn't provide complete information for.
tonygraz Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,230
DrafterX wrote:
I got an A in Statics... does that count..?? Huh


Only if your barber charges you more than others.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
victor809 wrote:
Opel. When you compare two pieces of data, you have to have a reason. The temperature in Atlanta and the number of rows of bricks in the Washington monument are both valid pieces of data, but you only relate them to each other if there's a meaningful connection. That connection has to come from the theme of your argument.

The "cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than a black man shot by the cops" data point is implicitly suggesting a theme of "cops need to be worried about being shot by black men". However, the data being provided is incomplete. From that number all we can say is "cops get killed by black men more than they shoot black men, however we don't know if they get shot by black men more often than they get shot by white men or Asian men or by raccoons for that matter, cops may be safest around black men, but we weren't bothered to check because we stopped at a number that sounded scary"... They left out the rest of the narrative I included, because they didn't want you to follow their inner monologue.

You're right, it's a valid number (we'll, as I said earlier it doesn't actually pass a sniff test for 2014,but maybe she was using a compilation of other years which were worse) but the data is being used to make suggestions which it doesn't provide complete information for.


Actually, you're trying to make the data suggest something it isn't trying to suggest on it's own...

the statement "cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than a black man shot by the cops", is not attempting to compare the probability of a cop being shot by a black man vs. a white man or any other color of man... that's you trying to do that...

the only thing the data seems to suggest is that police officers are 18 times more justified in fearing black men than black men are in fearing police officers...

If the study was done with any other race, I'm sure the result would still be that "police officers are x amount of times more justified in fearing y colored men than y colored men are in fearing police officers"...

It doesn't make any of the data incomplete... it's just not sufficient data to use when trying to say what you're saying the data is trying to say... but it isn't saying that...
banderl Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 09-09-2008
Posts: 10,153
MACS wrote:
Interesting FBI statistic about 'police brutality'. Police officers are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black man than they are to kill an unarmed black man.



You guys can argue about this all that you'd like but notice the bold part of this post.
Obviously, the vast majority of black men are armed while interacting with the police..
Abrignac Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,263
One can make statistics say pretty much anything they want them to say depending upon how the data sets are interpreted. At the end of the day, its nothing more than a tiger chasing its tail. The only stat that's relevant in this discussion is that 98.2% of those bundles of daisy fertilizer fought the law and the law won.
DrafterX Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,535
tonygraz wrote:
Only if your barber charges you more than others.



no idea what that is suppose to mean... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I think it was a pole joke...
DrMaddVibe Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,394
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGmunYOJO90
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