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A very LONG article ...
Slimboli Offline
#1 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Counterfeit Cuban Cigars

This excellent article on Counterfeit Cuban Cigars appeared in a newsletter distributed by Ajax Cigars.

Enjoy!

I have scoured the internet and found several good articles on the subject which I have used for some of my source material as well as drawing from my own personal experience and sources of information. This is by no means the definitive work on the subject and the fact that the information changes almost daily, as new scams and techniques are developed by the counterfeiters, makes it a difficult task. Nor is it a primer on the detection of bogus bands labels and boxes. I've seen bands, labels and boxes that are so authentic when taken individually that you would swear they are genuine. Sometimes they are. For example counterfeit cigars are often put in genuine used boxes and then sold as singles in clubs, bars and restaurants. It's not that difficult to make a good knock-off band. But to make a good knock-off band, box and cigar and then present the package as the real deal, then you have a different kettle of fish. I tackle the problem differently. Its an overall look, feel and common sense approach that you can easily hone and will save you money. I hope you find the material both informative and entertaining.

The undeniable fact is that most "Cuban Cigars" that Americans smoke, are not Havanas at all. It has been estimated that up to 90% of all "Habanos" sold to Americans worldwide are out and out fakes - counterfeit to the core. Its as easy as taking candy from a baby since most Americans have never seen, much less smoked, a legitimate Cuban Cigars. During my travels throughout your wonderful country I have NEVER been offered a "Cuban" cigar in a Bar, Club or Restaurant that was legit. Countless times I have seen customers forking out $30-40 and herfing away on a "Cohiba Esplendido", when, from 10 feet away, you can tell from that pure white ash that it's not a real Cuban. While it's possible to buy Cuban Cigars in countries such as Canada and Mexico and then resell them in America, there is a minimal profit in buying a box say for $325.00 and reselling it for $400. Tobacco taxes usually nullify this third-country concept. Factor into the equation the risk of losing the cigars to customs, and it becomes clear that reselling real Cuban cigars bought abroad doesn't make much business sense. Smugglers are only interested in making money and the preferred method is to buy boxes of counterfeit cigars for $25-50 and then resell them in the States for $400. Or another popular method, done from within the US, is to take bundled non-cuban cigars slap on a counterfeit label, box them up and sell them as the real deal. With the advent of the graphic computer, color laser printers and photocopiers - it's not that hard to do. I spoke with a guy from Florida who does just that and he told me that his cost per box was between $25-40, depending on the size of the cigar. The potential profit from selling fake Cuban Cigars is immense, and don't think for a second that the less honorable in society don't take advantage of this fact. So how do you keep the lowlifes from lining their pockets with your hard earned money? Here are some tips that may save you a few bucks.

RESTAURANTS AND BARS

Lets do the easy one first. Your out for dinner or a few pops in a cigar friendly bar or restaurant. You ask your server if they have any Cuban Cigars (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) Now normally you don't carry a jewelers lope with you to examine the label so what do you do. Two things usually solve the problem quickly.

1) Scope the room. If you see others smoking cigars that are said to be Cuban, look at the ash on the cigar. Now if you've been paying attention, I covered this one already. Cuban cigars have a distinctive ash color. Its a darker gray than most non-Cubans which tend to lean towards an almost white ash. Now I know what your thinking, you've seen lots of non-Cuban cigars that have a darker gray ash, right. I think that you will agree that the darker colored ash appears on some of the more expensive non- Cubans. Remember that the counterfeiter is in this game to maximize his return. Don't bother with step 2, in fact don't even ask if they have any Cubans.

2) Look at the cap wrapper. Cuban cigars are finished in such a way that the cap wrapper has 3 individual layers that you can easily see. No three layers - garbage.

If any one of these two don't fit, keep your money in your pocket. My general rule is keep your money in your pocket anyway, but, hey its good information to know and an easy way to win a bet.

Amaze and mystify your friends. Have them put 4 non- Cubans and 1 Cuban in a row - no labels and you can pick the Cuban every time. Now the cap wrapper thing doesn't work with Torpedos - the end is wrapped different. Also Trinidad's, Cohiba Corona Especiales and Cohibas Lanceros have a pig tail finish on the end of the cap wrapper.

CIGAR SHOPPING IN A FOREIGN LAND

Everyone has a story of a friend "smuggling" cigars back from Mexico or some exotic Caribbean nation (it just doesn't sound as cool if its from Canada). So your going on a well deserved vacation or you want to make the best of that business trip and buy some Cuban cigars. Now before you step into a shop with a big "M" in the middle of your forehead lets get you well prepared.

First a few shopping rules.

If It Seems To Good To Be True .... It Is.

Look its going to cost you. You are looking to spend anywhere from $100 - 500 per box depending on the brand and cigar size. Tales of Genuine Cohibas at $60 per box are just that. They don't exist anywhere, period, end of story. Anyone tells you that - take pleasure in telling them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

If You Can't Spot The Sucker .... The Sucker Is You.

In my shop a great many of our American customers can't tell the difference between a Cuban and a Swisher Sweet. We always give a little tour through the humidor and explain the different cigars, and strengths. Try and buy from a Tobacconist and look for an authorized Habanos Sticker in the shop window. If your an authorized dealer you are spot checked on a regular basis and a thorough investigation is done before the authorization is awarded. Avoid the small gift shops and corner stores - fakes abound. Do a little research before hand and ask lots of questions. Know your labels. A good collection of fake labels can be seen on the Cigar Aficionado site. And when you finally decide to make a purchase make sure that you are buying a cigar that suits you. By that I mean mild, medium, full bodied. Ask the Tobacconist and if you don't like the answers walk. The most important aspect of your shopping adventure is to find a shop where you are comfortable and have some trust in the humidor steward.

The Hand Is Quicker Than The Eye

I must confess that I got caught on this one myself. It's the old bait and switch. I picked a box of Montecristo #2 and took it to the counter to pay. The sweet young girl behind the counter took the box and switched it for a box of bogies while I was distracted. Slick and smooth and when I finally noticed - to late.

So now that you have your game plan laid out lets get down to some details.

What your looking for in a box of Cuban Cigars is an overall feel that its correct. The reason I say that is because even in real boxes of Cubans I have seen mistakes. I remember that for a while the machine that cuts the half moon on the cedar separator sheet that goes between the two layers of cigars was broken. Yes you heard right only one machine. What are they going to do, shut down the entire production waiting for a new part? Therefore they had some guy cutting a diagonal instead of the half moon by hand. Not a thing wrong with the cigars. But there you go. I have also seen the odd date stamp missing on the bottom of the box. You see most of the functions are done by hand and therefore genuine mistakes happen.

Inspecting The Exterior Of The Box

Check for the Warranty Seal. The Cuban tax/ seal stamp is applied to all boxes of Cuban Cigars. In early 2000 an updated Warranty seal started to appear. The new seal is on all the boxes since 2000. So if the box was made before 2000, old seal, after 2000, new seal. The major differences between the two seals is easily seen. The new seal has a set of serial numbers in red lettering. Also the new seal has only 5 field workers in the little oval picture. The old seal has no serial numbers and there are nine field workers in the oval picture. Typically the seal is attached to the front left edge of dressed boxes wrapping top to bottom with the first fold falling within the oval coat of arms crest. The Habanos Chevron will be on the upper right corner of dress boxes. On Cabinet boxes the Warranty seal and the Habanos Chevron are placed on the sliding lid. The only way you can slide open the lid is by breaking the seals. I've seen them placed on the lid in all manner of locations therefore placement is not a factor. On the bottom of the box there are three hallmarks or logos. Habanos s.a. - the s.a. is in small letters not capitalized HECHO EN CUBA - all capitalized encircled by a straight sided oval Totalmente a mano - written in script The first two logos appear on all boxes of Cuban cigars and the third appears on all boxes of totally hand made Cuban Cigars. If you are buying a box that is pro-ported to be totally hand made it must have the 'Totalmente a mano' logo on the bottom. All of the logos are burned into the bottom of the box - not stamped with an ink stamp. You can feel the depth by running your finger over it. Also on the bottom of the box you will find the factory and date stamp. They are coded. The codes are available on the Cigar Aficionado site. The NIVELACUSO and NETAGIDOCU codes are no longer used and you will see them only on boxes that bear the old Warranty seal. If your box bears the new Warranty seal then you will see the new code which shows the factory of production in a three letter code and underneath that the date code which comprises a three letter date for the month (in Spanish) followed by two numbers for the year. This is stamped on with an ink stamp. Familiarize yourself with the different type of packaging in which Cuban Cigars are available. Various brands and sizes are packaged in certain styles of boxes. These include dress boxes, polished boxes, varnished and unvarnished cabinets, semi boite natural boxes, sliding lid boxes (SLB'S) commonly referred to as cabinet boxes and transit packs. The list is huge. Finally, depending on where the box was distributed will determine some other common box labels and stamps that are present. Canada Boxes from Canada currently have a Havana House sticker applied to them. The older ones are purple and white and the newer ones are green and white. There is no special place on the box where they attached but you can't open the box without breaking this seal. If you try and peel off the seal it displays the repeating watermark VOID. Also we have the lovely health stickers on our boxes. Spain Boxes from Spain have the "Ministerio de Economia y Haceienda Espana" green/ blue seal on the right front edge of the box. England Boxes from England have the Hunter and Frankau English Market Selection "EMS" sticker on the top left corner of the box. Holland Boxes from the Netherlands have a small beige "Sigaren" seal applied to the right front edge of the box. Germany These boxes feature the official German importer, 5th Avenue Cigars, labeled on the bottom. The German tax stamp also indicates the price per box and per cigar. Australia The Aussie's have a simple white and blue Alexander Group importer stamp on the bottom front edge of the box plus a dyed stamp AG serial number on the bottom of the box.

I know that this seems like a lot of things to remember but it really isn't. It just looks that way when its written down. Good luck and I hope you find what your looking for. One last point to cover. Don't be surprised if you can't find a specific cigar. Its a supply and demand game and some of the more popular cigars are difficult to find. So I would suggest you have more than one item on your wish list.

CIGAR SHOPPING ON THE INTERNET

I realize that there are hundreds of internet sites selling Cuban cigars out there. The vast majority are run by small hard working entrepreneurs. Its the minority who give a bad name to the rest of us. Its a hurdle that we are faced with on a daily basis. Who knows how many potential customers are lost because of insecurity. You do not have to be a cigar detective in order to reduce your exposure to fake Cuban cigars. Your efforts are best directed to finding an honest and reliable supplier. Also its impossible to utilize any of the procedures outlined above, regarding examining the box, when buying on the internet! So I figured the best way to approach this was to tell you what I would do if I was going to buy Cuban cigars on the internet. First and foremost I would go to Ajax Cigars (hey I have to get a plug in now and then)

Here are a few tips to help you in your quest.

Lets say you have decided to buy from your neighbor and largest trading partner - Canada.

The first thing I would do is a search and pull up say 10 sites. Visit them all and look at their polices regarding price, shipping, methods of payment etc. Pick any cigar - say Bolivar Gigantes. Now write down all the prices in US dollars (be careful because some site list their product prices only in the local currency so you may have to do some math) for that box of Churchills. I checked out 20. Most prices fell within $485 - 589 per box. The two lowest prices were $285 and $300. Tell you anything?

PRICES

Lets say you wanted to buy a brand new Chevy. Gm sets up a wholesaler in each country where they operate and the dealers buy from the wholesaler. Its the same in the Cuban cigar business. In Canada the sole supplier of Cuban Cigars is Havana House. They set the wholesale price on Cuban cigars. We buy from them. Ours like any other is a competitive business and you will see a range of prices between sites. But I can tell you for a fact that the sites selling for $285 and $300 are selling the cigars below the wholesale cost!! Remember Rule #1 If It Seems To Good To Be True .... It Is.

START SMALL AND BUILD YOUR RELATIONSHIP

Once you have decided to place an order. Start small. Build your relationship. Discuss your requirement, likes and dislikes of non Cuban cigars or Cuban cigars you have tried. Order a sample pack which should include a range of both strengths and sizes. By doing this you get to find a cigar you like and can test the quality of the product. The only way I would buy a full box, right off, is if I know my cigars and had been referred to the site by a friend who was satisfied. Your supplier should work hard to earn your trust and to keep it. Your the boss.

CREDIT CARDS

This is an excellent line of defense for the consumer. If you don't get your order you can always dispute the credit card transaction and get a refund. Credit card rules are heavily favored toward the cardholder not the merchant. I have noticed that some of the sites that sell counterfeits insist on payment by money order. Hmmm, I wonder why?

Well to close the issue on counterfeiting I thought that it would be interesting to relay to you how the counterfeit trade works inside Cuba.

AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE CUBAN COUNTERFEIT TRADE

Cuba's present economic hardship has its people searching endless new ways of making money. In the old days when counterfeiting existed on a very small scale, it was considered merely a "gentleman's offense". Today however the Habanos counterfeiting business is in full bloom. This article will take you from the acquiring of the raw tobacco to smoking in capitalism's fine salons.

First meet Jose who used to live in Pinar del Rio on a Finca (farm) about 15 klicks from San Juan y Martinez. Mucho trabajo y poco dinero or "much work for no money". Jose didn't want anymore so he moved from the Vuelta Abajo to the "city of capitalism" Havana. With an old Chevy pickup truck we head to Pinar del Rio to buy tobacco. After three hours we arrive in San Juan y Martinez. Many Vegueros throughout Cuba hold back some tobacco for the black market, where they can get up to ten times the price paid by the state. First stop, nada. Now its off to San Luis, 20 minutes away. It is a poor region. Most of the Vegueros here own little plantations and anyone earning more than $100 per month is considered rich. The Vegueros leads us to his Casa del Tobaco. On the racks are thousands of leaves that look like hundreds of bats hanging around. In one corner are bales of tobacco that have been wrapped in palm leaves. The tobacco is still light in color which means that the fermentation is not yet finished. Jose wants tobacco for 5000 cigars and talks with the Vegueros about price. The deal is set at filler for $2.50 per kilo and a sheaf of wrapper, which contains about 100 leaves for $4.00. Total cost $500.00 a small fortune in Pinar del Rio. Fully loaded we head back to Havana. Jose is sweating and is afraid of getting caught by the police. He hasn't been in the business very long. The tobacco is stored in Nuevo Vedado, a section of Havana where we meet Benito. He's a car mechanic with his own shop - which hides other things. Jose's tobacco will rest here for a few days before being distributed and processed further. He explains that this tobacco is reserved for an American (we'll meet George later) living in the Bahamas who has ordered 50 boxes of Partagas Lusitanias, 50 Punch Double Corona, 50 Hoyo de Monterrey Double Coronas and 50 Cohiba Esplendidos. The American wants only the best quality and is willing to pay for it. We spoke with another counterfeiter who buys his tobacco from some of the worst regions, where tobacco for cigarettes and other tobacco products are grown, and sold only for domestic consumption. The leaves are small and the fermentation shorter. This is where the smaller counterfeit organizations buy their tobacco. Behind innumerable streets and corners where extremely poor people live, we wind our way through the dark passageways, staircases and doors of an old colonial place. Everything is worn and run down. Collapsed walls, a strong stench and begging children. Its like a garbage dump. In a small room sits a young boy and an old woman who can barely walk. She receives a monthly government pension of $2.00, an amount impossible to survive on. She learned from a neighbor how to roll cigars. The boy and the lady are rolling "Churchill" style - maybe a future Cohiba Esplendido, they don't know. We test the quality of some of these cigars. Poorly proportioned with both hard and weak spots. The cigars are not cut at the right length as this will be done later at the finishing workshops. The cigars are like the garbage dump, partly rotten and moldy. These people work day after day without a break. One worker can make approximately 200 cigars per day. A man enters the room and requests unfinished cigars for 10 boxes of Cohiba's. He is surprised by our presence but we persuade him to take us to the guy who makes the boxes. In the back yard of Eduardo's house is a small workshop. In between half built chairs and cabinets are vast amounts of cigar boxes. One worker puts the boxes together. In a corner stands a hand press that imprints the brand labels on boxes. The stamps are either stolen or counterfeited by specialists. "With furniture you can't make money" he complains. "The Cubans are too poor to buy such things." "We have to improvise but in this way the Cubans are world champions." The next day we visit a Cuban in Centro Habana. His workshop is his living room. Cigar bands, quality seals and other materials are everywhere. On one table are a lot of empty boxes. He puts the bands on the cigars and cuts them to length. He has them spread across the sofa in piles of "good quality" and "bad quality". When he packs them in the boxes he makes sure the poorest are on the bottom. He tells us that he doe not sell the cigars to the tourists - this is done by the Jineteros or street hustlers. He told that he spent a year in jail when he was caught by the police with 10 boxes of counterfeits. The next time would mean several years - so he leaves it up to the Jineteros. He puts the tax / seal stamp and Habanos label inside the box. He will attach the labels to the box only if the customer requests it. The counterfeiting organizations work in small groups and co-operate closely with each other. Their methods are simple: at the doors and in the immediate area of the cigar stores and factories, stand the Jineteros offering reduced prices. From all sides, they try to persuade you not to buy in the shops. They always tell the same story - right from the counterfeiters manual. They have a brother, sister, cousin, uncle, aunt or nephew who works in the factory and brings them out for them. If this were true then the entire production of the Partagas Factory would disappear on the black market - every day! Everything is the same, the brands and the sales pitch. The quality and the price however vary. The main counterfeit cigars are the larger sizes and bear well-known labels. The most fraudulent of all are the Cohiba and Montecristo. Other brands can be delivered as well, without delay. Now most would think that this is just an internal problem within Cuba. Well here is where it gets interesting. Every year thousand of tourists go to Cuba to buy the Falsificaciones. Many of them do it intentionally, like Dieter who is an aficionado from Stuttgart. Twice a year he flies to Cuba to buy cigars in the official shops. He buys ten boxes for his own enjoyment. Another 10 boxes he buys on the black market for $30 a piece. He in turns sells these in Germany at half the going market price. With his earnings from the sale of the black market cigars he finances his personal cigar purchases. The black market cigars must be sold quickly because they have not undergone disinfection like those in the factories. Therefore, within a short period of time the tobacco beetle is hard at work. Hans, a Dutchman living in Cuba, tells us that, for the past three years, he has made his living from cigar smuggling. Five to six times a year he flies to Amsterdam with 100 boxes of counterfeits in his luggage. We ask him to tell explain to us how he takes such large amounts out of Cuba without detection. He says that he knows "people" at the airport and pays them $10.00 per box - no questions asked. Then Hans offers us the opportunity to join him in business because, by the way, he is short of money. He shows us a business card and then laughs. It is a card from a well known cigar shop in Amsterdam with subsidiaries all over the Netherlands. Every time he goes to Amsterdam he claims he sells them all his cigars at Dfl 500 per box. "Its quick money" he says. George (he's the guy that Jose bought all the tobacco for) lives in Tampa Florida but is a citizen of the Bahamas. He owns a yacht which he rents to tourists who want to go deep sea fishing. On one of his charter trips to Cuba several years ago, George got the idea to smuggle cigars when he saw his passengers bringing vast amounts with them. Soon after, he once again sailed to Cuba and contacted counterfeiters. At first he bought only a few, now George smuggles around 2000 boxes a year to the states. The cigars are loaded into George's yacht and in a flash the boat is cleared for departure and heads for the Bahamas. He remains there for a few days and then travels under the American flag to Miami. In Miami a distributor pay $250 per box and the cigars leave Miami for fine cigar shops, restaurants, bar and clubs - from New York to Los Angles. Tom and his buddy ordered 1000 cigars from a Torcedor (roller). He pays the Torcedor a $1000. "Good quality that we would smoke as well" he says. Then a counterfeiter provides the bands for $60. They fly back to the US via the Dominican Republic. One has the cigars in his luggage the other has the bands in his. In the USA they declare the cigars as 'Dominican Seconds' and pay a small duty. Once back in Palm Springs they put the bands on the cigars and fill boxes that we keep on hand. They offer them under the table in their smoking lounge. "For one Cohiba Robusto we get $40. They sell like hot cakes" he said.

In the state owned media, tightening the black market activities is constantly talked about. On the street, however, it's a different story. On every corner, you are offered cigars. It seems each household is selling cigars. The police turn a blind eye. When we asked the police why nothing is being done to stop this - we are told that most of Havana would be in jail if action were taken.

Hope this helps you not to get burned.

Rod
Slimboli Offline
#2 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Box Appearance

A green and white warranty seal should be visible on the left front side of box. The seal’s colour can range from forest to lime-green inside the seal is an insignia that contains a shield with a hat resting on top. The fold line of the seal should run directly through the center of the shield. On the box’s upper right corner should be a white Habanos sticker, pasted diagonally. The box should look in neat and clean condition, free of smudges and scuff marks or dull in colour.

Note: All Cohiba brands will have a green and white warranty seal on right front side of the box and a Habanos sticker will be on box’s upper left corner. This is also true on Trinidad and Q’ dorsay brand.

On the bottom of box you will find a Habanos heat stamp. Make sure it is a heat stamp impressed into the box and not an ink stamp. Below this heat stamp will be a factory code stamp in an ink colour (usually green, blue or black). This tells you the factory where the cigars were rolled and the date.



Box Contents

Upon opening the box pull back the flap, and smell the tobacco. The fragrance should be pleasing, with a rich, deep aroma. The cigars should be uniform in both colour and shape. The top face of the cigar may appear flattened, or what is known as box-pressed. This is particularly true for torpedo shape. The caps should look identical, all resting at an equal distance from the top of the box. The foot of the cigar should be cut clean and straight, and the bands should be identical and aligned perfectly.

On the top and bottom row of cigars there should be a small strip of wax paper running across the bands. Next pull a cigar out of box and feel it, by holding between your thumb and forefinger. Press together down the whole length of the cigar, it should feel firm and even (not a hard spot and then a soft spot). This is always a dead giveaway that the cigars are counterfeit.
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#3 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
i'm sorry a missed that. what did you say?
PMoreno349 Offline
#4 Posted:
Joined: 07-05-2002
Posts: 665
We're not allowed to buy Cuban cigars in the US
jazzman Offline
#5 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2000
Posts: 1,012
jazzman Offline
#6 Posted:
Joined: 11-06-2000
Posts: 1,012
oops, slip of the finger. we are not allowed....but we do anyway
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#7 Posted:
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
some of us get on our yachts and go into international waters where we are met by the "the cuban cigar shoppe on the seas," whose motto is "we deliver what others promise."
rtatham Offline
#8 Posted:
Joined: 04-02-2002
Posts: 6
Excellent. Thanks, Mr. Boli
eleltea Offline
#9 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Excellent. Thanks, Mr. Boli.
rayder1 Offline
#10 Posted:
Joined: 06-02-2002
Posts: 2,226
Yachts? Man am I inferior. I think I'll just buy what's here on Cbid. We'll lift the embargo one day and we'll have plenty of real Cuban gars on Cbid.

IMHO:
I have a sneaking suspicion that since the embargo, most of the good growers, manufacturers and rollers have managed to flee to other places and make some excellent cigars that match and /or exceed the best that Cuba has or ever had to offer.

I can compare it to wine. There were some who said only wine from France, Italy, Spain Germany or Portugal(FISGAP) were acceptible. Since California has become a major wine source of exceptional quality over the last 30 or so years that has changed. The FISGAP wines were never subject to embargo (maybe Germany and Italy for 5-6 years). However, the quality of California wines has grown to such a high quality that they rival and in many cases, surpass the best that France or Italy has to offer. (This is subject to taste and, of course, vintage.)

You pay big bucks for a vintage French wine, but you can do as well with a California wine for much less.

I am no expert in cigars,nor will ever profess to have exquisite taste in either wine or cigars. But from my personal consumer vantage point, I see no reason to shell out high dollars for a label or past reputation.
Puros with a nice Habana label are fun just for the fact that they are illegal here. I am sure there are great cigars from Habana but, there are great smokes available from places with the same soil, climate, latitude and manufacturers as in Cuba.

In the case of legally purchased smokes, there is no crap shoot whether your $400 was spent on a box of Bolivar Habana or a fake. You can feel pretty good that what you bought is what you will get.

(Disclaimer-I am only stating an opinion based on my minimal personal experience with cigars and pretty good experience with wine)
Slimboli Offline
#11 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Here is a link that I pulled from CigarNexus that you might find interesting also ...

CNX Exclusive!!!



xibbumbero Offline
#12 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Slim,In the article,there's a mention of triple cap construction. Can you discribe for me what that means? X
Slimboli Offline
#13 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Cuban cigars are finished in such a way that the cap wrapper has three individual layers that you can easily see. This of course, can not be seen on the torpedo, as they are made differently.

A little off topic, I have discovered that the thumbnail of my right hand, inserted under the 'flag' or 'cap' of the cigar, is all that it takes to 'cut' a fine Cuban cigar. I just flip off the cap ... and smoke away!

But, you can try this with most handmade cigars, as they are made with a tiny last bit of the leaf folded like a flap over the end of the cigar. This is perfectly positioned to allow it to be easily lifted and removed with just your fingers.

Try it sometime ... or when you forget or misplace your cutter!
xibbumbero Offline
#14 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2002
Posts: 12,535
Slim,The Cubans I have,have what I would perceive to be triple cap construction,that is the wrapper covers the cap and then there's another layer on top of that,followed by a little round cap on the very end that covers the second layer. Is this the correct discription of triple cap construction? x
Slimboli Offline
#15 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
I believe so, if you can see the three discinct caps ...

Check out this link, there is a fairly good photo of a triple-cap' about ¾ of the way down the page ...

The Ultimate Counterfeit
Cuban Cigar Primer







cwilhelmi Offline
#16 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Does Portugal have any specifics I should know about?
Slimboli Offline
#17 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Chris --- I'm not sure what you are asking. Every country has their 'quirks' ... and some contries (such as Spain) are watched more closely by Customs, for some reason. Certain other countries are known to export a lot of counterfeits (Mexico, for one) ...

I haven't had cigars exported to me from Portugal, so I can't give you an answer on that one.

The main rule of thumb ... is get to know your retailer, if at all possible. I send email back and forth to them with my questions, until I am comfortable with their responses. If I don't like the answers is get ... good-by!
CJBully Offline
#18 Posted:
Joined: 07-31-2002
Posts: 753
Slim,
excellent post, thanx
cwilhelmi Offline
#19 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2001
Posts: 2,739
Thanks, I didn't know if they had any particular quirks I should know. chris
eleltea Offline
#20 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
Another public service by Slimboli. I wanted to bring this back to the top for those who missed it and so I can send it to my dentist friend.
eleltea Offline
#21 Posted:
Joined: 03-03-2002
Posts: 4,562
along with the 2 links
Slimboli Offline
#22 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
... and it amazes me how much discord I am responsible for on this board?

... hehehe!
wbslngr Offline
#23 Posted:
Joined: 08-27-2002
Posts: 748
hey slim, there are two of us in the chat. I think we are going for a record.
jmgiovi Offline
#24 Posted:
Joined: 09-10-2002
Posts: 20
I think that all of us are looking forward to the end of the embargo, but let me ask you all...what do you think will happen to the quality of the cigars after the embargo ends?

I'm willing to bet that even the real Cubans will be made from crap for years due to overwhelming demand from the U.S.

At first I thought that the conterfeit Cubans would come to an end after the embarbo, but watch and see. I will not be surprised to see prices go UP on Cubans after the embargo, and therefore the counterfeiting should also increase.

No end in sight.

Jim
qmechanics Offline
#25 Posted:
Joined: 09-06-2002
Posts: 1,269
Hello
The funny thing is living in Miami I have friends who visit Cuba quite often.They are experienced Cuban smokers who can spot a fake a mile away.I have become somewhat better versed in the way of the fake,but regardless I can say I have only smoked original Cubans.It helps to know people from Cuba and live in a place where there are educated smokers.
Q
Slimboli Offline
#26 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Yeah ... just be careful of the "I have a friend who knows the brother of a man who is good friends with the roller" ... blah, blah, blah ...

... it's the oldest trick in the world of counterfeits.
Board_Bouncer Offline
#27 Posted:
Joined: 09-30-2002
Posts: 7
Slimboli,

Cuban cigars are very abundant here in south Florida. People traveling from cuba are allowed to bring back 2 boxes each trip. So we are a lot less likley to see counterfeit Cuban cigars here than in California. I stay away from the Cohiba's, they are crap counterfiet or not.
Slimboli Offline
#28 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
You've got to be kidding me, right?

That's just not true. Florida is the worst state for counterfeits just because of the fact that you stated. It's so close to Cuba ... they've got to
be real, true? False

It just isn't so ... and you have to be really careful.

This is taken from one of the liks I posted on the, 'A very LONG thread':

It is commonly estimated that greater than 95% of the cigars in the US reputed to be Cuban are actually fakes. In my experience this is probably close to accurate, as I see fake after fake. Also, keep in mind that there are far more on average counterfeit Cuban cigars circulating in Florida, New York, and California.

In other worlds, Florida is rampant with fakes ...
Slimboli Offline
#29 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
... and when did the laws change?

Only persons returning from Cuba after a licensed visit there are permitted to bring Cuban cigars into the United States, provided the value of such cigars does not exceed $100 US dollars and the cigars are for that individual's personal use and not for resale.

All other importations of Cuban cigars are illegal.

All offers to buy or sell such cigars in the United States involve cigars that were imported illegally. Contrary to what many people may believe, it is illegal for travelers to bring into the United States Cuban cigars acquired in third countries (such as Canada, England, or Mexico).

I got the above information HERE ...
Board_Bouncer Offline
#30 Posted:
Joined: 09-30-2002
Posts: 7
Slimboli,

I made the statement based on what I have seen with my own two eyes. I have picked up friends coming from Cuba at Miami International with 2 boxes in hand. US customs does not want to get into the cigar pricing game. 50 sticks @ $2 bucks a stick = $100.

I have also been to a herf where a US customs agent was joining us in smoking the "contraband" (legal Partagas). He told the group that a lot of cuban cigars come in legally. "There are flights out of Miami that make scheduled stops in Cuba while en route to South America. The people on those flights ALWAYS bring back 2 boxes of cuban cigars each." He also said that what they are looking for is people bringing back a couple of suit cases full of cigars. He said that they have had a few idiots try.

I would like to know what makes you think that you are such an "expert" in the trade of Cuban cigars. Have you lived in Cuba? Have you lived in south Florida? I doubt you have even smoked that many Cuban cigars. I know, you are a US government agent trying to stop people from buying Cuban cigars.
bassithound Offline
#31 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2002
Posts: 118
Hey boardbouncer, didn't you know that slim is the resident expert on everything, just ask him.
Slimboli Offline
#32 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
What makes you think that I think I am such an expert? I never made any such claim ... and only 'copy and paste' what research I have found on the internet.

I'm glad you know me well enough to know how many Cuban cigars I have smoked ... I'm impressed with your clairvoyant abilities.

... and on your final statement, don't be absurd. I could care less on how many Cuban cigars a person buys. I try to get as many as I am able ...

Like I said ... I just go by what I've read and what others tell me. I'm not saying that all I've read or been told to the truth either (I'm sure there are many loopholes where you can get around the laws) ... but for now, that's all I have to go on, and just passing on the information for those not as savy as you. Most fakes are sold to those who can't tell the difference ...

No need to get pushed out of shape by it ...
Slimboli Offline
#33 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
bassithound --- the only ones who think I'm an 'expert on everything' are those with 'thin skin' who have issues with me ...

All I do is state an opinion, and that's all it is ...
bassithound Offline
#34 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2002
Posts: 118
I don't have thin skin and the comment wasn't directed to you. I just peruse the board and call'um as a see'um.
Slimboli Offline
#35 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Sorry ... my bad.

I thought, "... didn't you know that slim is the resident expert on everything, just ask him" was a comment about me.
bassithound Offline
#36 Posted:
Joined: 07-24-2002
Posts: 118
It was, but it wasn't directed to you, I don't care what you think. What was that original longgggg article about anyway?
Board_Bouncer Offline
#37 Posted:
Joined: 09-30-2002
Posts: 7
Slimboli,


You stated the folowing:
"You've got to be kidding me, right?"


Lets see if I have this right. Some guy posts what he knows to be fact and it goes against what you believe to be true so automaticly it's BS.



"That's just not true. Florida is the worst state for counterfeits just because of the fact that you stated. It's so close to Cuba ... they've got to
be real, true? False"


I never stated that Florida's proximity to Cuba had anything to due with the supply of Cuban cigars in Florida. I said that the people traveling to Cuba from Florida is the reason that we have less counterfeit Cuban Cigars here. But hey, who am I to educate the expert.



"It just isn't so ... and you have to be really careful."

Yes you do have to be careful. Just because someone puts something in writing on a web site doesn't make it true. Again if I state something that goes against what you believe, you slam it as being less than the truth. I would think that you would take someones first hand experience over something posted on a web site. I have seen you do this over and over on this forum, hence the self proclaimed "expert" coment.



"This is taken from one of the liks I posted on the, 'A very LONG thread':

It is commonly estimated that greater than 95% of the cigars in the US reputed to be Cuban are actually fakes. In my experience this is probably close to accurate, as I see fake after fake. Also, keep in mind that there are far more on average counterfeit Cuban cigars circulating in Florida, New York, and California."



"In other worlds, Florida is rampant with fakes ..."


I made my statements that Florida is NOT rampant with fakes based on my experience. Is the writer of that information a resident of Florida? I think not. He is making a guess as to the prevelence of counterfeit cigars here. That guess is probably based on a visit to one or two cities here. I would say that if he visited Tampa, Orlando or Jacksonville that he would be a lot more likely to find counterfeit cuban cigars. And again, who am I to teach the EXPERT anything.


I find it amusing that you take the information that I was trying to convey as a personal attack. The latter statements in my first post were ment as a joke!.... a government agent.....get real......you need to lighten up.... hence the Board_Bouncer handle.... that was also done to poke a little fun at the great Slimboli "Lord of Discipline". You need that trip to PR for a little R&R. May be when you get back we will see a kinder gentler Slimboli, one that is not going to jump all over someone for thread jacking or posting on the wrong board.

I saw in one of your post's a statement to the fact that C-bid has not come down on you for the way you act here. My guess is that you spend a lot of money here, and they are not about to bite the hand that feeds them. So with that said.... back to lerking.....
Slimboli Offline
#38 Posted:
Joined: 07-09-2000
Posts: 16,139
Points well made!

I still don't know who this EXPERT is that you are referring ... and it's certainly not me. That is a title some (not most by any means) people here like to label me. All I do, is post information I have come across for people to read, and then let them form their own conclusions. I'm well known for being stongly opiniated on certain subjects, and it's bound to rub some people the wrong way. I just feel it just makes for some really good debates, and should be taken as such.

Just like you said ... don't believe everything you hear, read, or find on the internet. But one thing that bothers me a little ... is why should I take one mans experiences (yours) as the ultimate truth, when in searching the internet you can find countless articles all saying pretty much the same thing about the percentage of counterfeits in the USA and certain states being more of a target?

I'll certainly give you credit where credit is due in that your experience in Cuban cigars may very well surpass many of us (myself included) ... so you are less likely to be taken in a scam. But it doesn't hurt to pass on information so the less informed know what they are up against. Your posts make it seem like there is nothing to be concerned about, and may put the less experienced Cuban cigar seeker into a false sense of security.

I'll let you take on the 'expert' title if you want it ... I certainly don't need it.
Trakakktagator Offline
#39 Posted:
Joined: 10-07-2002
Posts: 1
Slim--
If I spot the 3 caps on my Romeo Y Julieta churchills, would you say they are probably authentica? They are a 5-pack that cost $55. They are OUTSTANDING smokes. I will check the ash for color when I smoke one tonight. THANKS
rodnie Offline
#40 Posted:
Joined: 06-05-2004
Posts: 506
Just in case you needed something to do. I noticed that most of the posters are the same. The one exception is that RICKMAVEN doesn't post on Cigars & Related anymore.
cexshun Offline
#41 Posted:
Joined: 09-23-2004
Posts: 1,289
This was pretty funny. Nice to see Slim still has this affect on people.

Are you an expert on ISOMs yet, Slim? It's been 2 years now. LMAO

This post is a riot.
0patience Offline
#42 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2003
Posts: 1,023
Sorry to threadjack, but.......

Am I the only one who noticed that Slim is able to put links in his posts and make the letters bold??

I tried to put a greater than symbol in a post the other day and it said that I had put an illegal character in my post.
So what gives??
0patience Offline
#43 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2003
Posts: 1,023
Never mind, I just looked at the dates of the posts. LOL!
usahog Offline
#44 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
Slim can still do this... he is the Master of Discipline!!!!

Remember? LOL

he used to be able to change color fonts also???

Hog
usahog Offline
#45 Posted:
Joined: 12-06-1999
Posts: 22,691
DOH!!!!!!!

Lord of Discipline is what I meant... LoL

Hog
Nick@Perdomo Offline
#46 Posted:
Joined: 05-11-2004
Posts: 237
Dear Slim:
Some good points. I'd like to make a couple points and I ask your patience in reading them.

Today as you well know Cuba is much different then it was when my family was there and it was a free country. The Cuban cigars of today are not what they used to be and we will leave it at that. The average monthly income of a Cuban roller is about $6.00 to $10.00!! I ask, what incentive does one have to make a quality product when the government is paying these types of meager wages? The Cuban people are starving and it is not because of the embargo. Remember how much Cuban cigars cost? Someone is making a lot of money and you know who it is.

On the counterfeit issue let's say, hypothetically of course, I work at the H. Upmann factory in Cuba and I make THE Monte 4 and I steal filler, binder and wrapper to make 25 more Monte #4's later at my home. My buddy in packaging steals 25 bands and a box. We meet at my house after our 12 hour workday, my kids are crying because they are hungry because of food shortages. Of course my wife is miserable. Remember I made (at best) a total of 43 cents making a couple hundred cigars that will fetch the Cuban Goverment 125.00 (the poor farmers make even less!!). I find a corner in my home, make the cigars, and my friend helps me package them. I go out the next morning and sell them for 30 bucks.
Now why are these cigars counterfeit? Because I didn't make them in the building I have to slave in daily? Is it because my buddy didn't put the bands on perfectly? And you know what me and my buddy made between us? 3 months of pay for just selling that one box of Monte 4s. And the tourist benefits because he just saved a couple hundred dollars. It happens that way all over Cuba, as well as Miami and a lot of other places around the world. To me, those cigar are legitimate, albeit desperately. With regard to cigars made with non-Cuban tobaccos, I agree wholeheartedly with you. At the same time, a lot of them are superior to the real mc'coy in the sense that many are better constructed - many use tobaccos with some time on them - and they draw.

It reminds me of one day about three years ago. My dad and I were in a tourist area in Nicaragua where they were selling two boxes of Perdomo Reserve. We don't sell cigars in Nicaragua. You guy's do a wonderful job consuming them.(Thank You very much) The boxes had no guarantee seals,the bands were not put on right, But you know what? they tasted great because the thief in my factory who stole the materals and packaging used the correct blend of filler, binder and wrapper. To make a real long story shorter we caught the two. And they made real good money working for us. The point is one day Cuba will be producing great cigars. Fields will be rotated and fertilized corectly. Soil analysis will be conducted yearly. And people will earn money in the tobaccoo profession to proud of and be able to provide for their families. Our Europeon distributors bring us Cuban cigars all the time and I have smoked Cuban cigars, some good many that are awful. I have never purchased a Cuban cigar nor will I. My Cuban heritage won't let me knowing that the only one who prospers is the goverment. But one day that will change. So know I recommend that you all enjoy the many great cigars that we as Americans can enjoy. There are many great cigars produced in many countries outside of Cuba. Someone big in the Cuban cigar industry (he will remain nameless so he can live) once told me "the best cigars are made by Cubans - and unfortunately for us, none of them live here anymore." Amen.
You guy's take care.
Nick
Nick Perdomo
President
Tabacalera Perdomo S.A.
www.perdomocigars.com
Nick@Perdomo Offline
#47 Posted:
Joined: 05-11-2004
Posts: 237
Dear Slim:
Some good points. I'd like to make a couple points and I ask your patience in reading them.

Today as you well know Cuba is much different then it was when my family was there and it was a free country. The Cuban cigars of today are not what they used to be and we will leave it at that. The average monthly income of a Cuban roller is about $6.00 to $10.00!! I ask, what incentive does one have to make a quality product when the government is paying these types of meager wages? The Cuban people are starving and it is not because of the embargo. Remember how much Cuban cigars cost? Someone is making a lot of money and you know who it is.

On the counterfeit issue let's say, hypothetically of course, I work at the H. Upmann factory in Cuba and I make THE Monte 4 and I steal filler, binder and wrapper to make 25 more Monte #4's later at my home. My buddy in packaging steals 25 bands and a box. We meet at my house after our 12 hour workday, my kids are crying because they are hungry because of food shortages. Of course my wife is miserable. Remember I made (at best) a total of 43 cents making a couple hundred cigars that will fetch the Cuban Goverment 125.00 (the poor farmers make even less!!). I find a corner in my home, make the cigars, and my friend helps me package them. I go out the next morning and sell them for 30 bucks.
Now why are these cigars counterfeit? Because I didn't make them in the building I have to slave in daily? Is it because my buddy didn't put the bands on perfectly? And you know what me and my buddy made between us? 3 months of pay for just selling that one box of Monte 4s. And the tourist benefits because he just saved a couple hundred dollars. It happens that way all over Cuba, as well as Miami and a lot of other places around the world. To me, those cigar are legitimate, albeit desperately. With regard to cigars made with non-Cuban tobaccos, I agree wholeheartedly with you. At the same time, a lot of them are superior to the real mc'coy in the sense that many are better constructed - many use tobaccos with some time on them - and they draw.

It reminds me of one day about three years ago. My dad and I were in a tourist area in Nicaragua where they were selling two boxes of Perdomo Reserve. We don't sell cigars in Nicaragua. You guy's do a wonderful job consuming them.(Thank You very much) The boxes had no guarantee seals,the bands were not put on right, But you know what? they tasted great because the thief in my factory who stole the materals and packaging used the correct blend of filler, binder and wrapper. To make a real long story shorter we caught the two. And they made real good money working for us. The point is one day Cuba will be producing great cigars. Fields will be rotated and fertilized corectly. Soil analysis will be conducted yearly. And people will earn money in the tobaccoo profession to proud of and be able to provide for their families. Our Europeon distributors bring us Cuban cigars all the time and I have smoked Cuban cigars, some good many that are awful. I have never purchased a Cuban cigar nor will I. My Cuban heritage won't let me knowing that the only one who prospers is the goverment. But one day that will change. So know I recommend that you all enjoy the many great cigars that we as Americans can enjoy. There are many great cigars produced in many countries outside of Cuba. Someone big in the Cuban cigar industry (he will remain nameless so he can live) once told me "the best cigars are made by Cubans - and unfortunately for us, none of them live here anymore." Amen.
You guy's take care.
Nick
Nick Perdomo
President
Tabacalera Perdomo S.A.
www.perdomocigars.com
Charlie Offline
#48 Posted:
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Nick

As usual you have excellent insight and bring a lot to the table in your all too few posts on CBid! Thanks for taking the time to share with us!

Charlie
stogiedude Offline
#49 Posted:
Joined: 10-06-2004
Posts: 545
well spoken nick. good to see you pop up here from time to time
qmech Offline
#50 Posted:
Joined: 06-17-2016
Posts: 970
Another blast from the past with Nick Perdomo making an appearance. This would happen from time to time,that is people from the industry posting. Since I have been away for a while, does the above still happen?
Q
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